I am willing and available to answer questions regarding same sex attraction, my 30+ years of marriage in a "mixed orientation marriage", and my belief in the gospel of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. (I invite others like me to respond to these questions as well)
Yesterday, while reading our favorite blog, The Weed, we were so happy to hear about a panel discussion that was held as a part of a stake meeting, where several men who are gay/same sex attracted were available to answer questions from the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Beaverton, OR Stake. It was clearly an effort to increase understanding and foster tolerance and love.
We, like many others, are so grateful for those willing and anxious to learn more about this very important issue that has been brought to a greater awareness by people like Josh & Lolly Weed, (and many others like them, and us, living in mixed orientation marriages), and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints new website.
One of the people who commented on that particular post, by Josh Weed's wife Lolly, asked for anyone (gay/ssa) who might be willing to answer the questions that Lolly had listed as a sample of the wonderful questions that were asked at the meeting that night. So, we (Mr. & Mrs. IDM) decided to respond to his request for answers. I, Mrs. IDM typed while Mr. IDM gave his answers.
Then today, while in my church meetings, I got to thinking that there could be a lot of people who have similar questions that they would like to have the opportunity to ask of some "gay guys" to help them learn and grow and develope better understanding of this issue. So, I asked my husband, Mr. IDM, if he would be willing to answer more questions, and what he thought of the idea of holding an "impromptu virtual panel discussion" on our blog. He agreed that it was a good idea and we decided to give it a go.
So, we invite any and all gay/same sex attracted individuals who are willing, or feel they have something to add, to also respond to any questions that are asked here. And, we encourage anyone who has a genuine interest in gaining some insights and better understanding to ask their questions here through this virtual panel discussion, as they might feel unable to ask questions directly of their friends/family/leaders, etc.
We realize that this might be just a few individuals' personal opinions, beliefs, feelings, and experiences. But, it's a start - and hopefully the complexities, confusion, and misunderstandings of this issue will begin to be seen in a much needed and more positive light.
Remember, --- love, kindness & respect is key. Ask away ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
One question that I have been asked, and its a valid question, IMHO, is how can a gay man or woman with any sense of personal integrity consider dating a member of the opposite sex and entertain the idea of entering a MOR (mixed orientation relationship).
ReplyDeleteOn the surface, at least, the ethical thing for a gay person to do is to avoid dating or marrying a person of the opposite sex, because they deserve someone they can count on to truly love them--all of them, and not pine for or want anything different.
For me, the question of ethics was resolved by direct communication from my Heavenly Father that I would shortly be getting married. Absent that, how would a gay person resolve that issue?
For me, at that time in my life, when I married my wife, the most important thing to me was to have some sense of "normalcy". I desperately wanted a family, with my own biological children, etc. I had told no one about my "secret", and I had just returned from an LDS mission. I did not understand my sexual attractions, I was confused, and struggling with the conflict.
ReplyDeleteI am not making excuses for myself, this is just my explanation, but I really didn't know what to do or where to turn. I had alot of thoughts back then, maybe getting married would help, maybe God would fix it, etc.
I had definitely fallen in Love with Mrs. IDM through the letters we wrote throughout my mission, and I knew that she loved me too. So, although I didn't have a sexual attraction to her physically, I did have a desire to share my life with her. (and, I wasn't blind, she was dang good lookin)
Ultimately, after we got married, I began to realize that the same sex attractions were not going away, I knew that I was in a mess and I didn't know what to do about it. To make a long story short, (we'll eventually write more about this in our blog), a lot of things took place throughout our 30+ years of marriage, and I ALWAYS felt much grief and dispair in the knowledge that I was not honest with her when I married her, and I always knew that she deserved "better".
Gratefully, what a miracle it is that we have made it through so much and have worked past it all to a wonderful place of peace, joy, happiness, love, communication, and yes - an amazing sex life as well.
Anyone can plainly see that the path I took and many of the decisions I made were definitely NOT a good idea. Hopefully, now days most young men are more educated, and have more open communication available with parents, family, teachers, leaders, counselors, or even friends. Hopefully, society is better understanding and serving young men like me. And hopefully, these young men see more options, and, know the importance of honesty, open communication with potential dates/wifes. And most important, they should rely on alot of help from their personal relationships with God - through prayer, striving to live the gospel, and learning all that they can to DEFINE themselves, and mold their lives in healthy ways, and, establish healthy, honest relationships with potential dates/wifes.
PS - all marriages take work, commmunication is key, and, although it's extremely important and should be a major component of a marriage, sex isn't all there is. I hear 50% of marriages end in divorce, so achieving success through "any" issues obviously takes alot of work.
Did you never consider telling a bishop about your sexuality before you met your wife? Or looking into therapy to figure things out? I don't know how you managed to keep it to yourself for so long. What sorrow, loneliness, desperation to put yourself through.
DeleteTHIS IS TESTAMENT TO ME THAT THE FEAR OF WHAT OTHERS (PARTICULARLY IN THE CHURCH) WILL THINK OF SAME-SEX ATTRACTED MEMBERS, AND ARRIVING AT A SOLUTION FOR ALL OF US IS PARAMOUNT TO THIS DISCUSSION. Making upper church leadership keenly aware of this fear of judgment being probably the most crippling motivating factor as to why so many SGA members keep their secret to themselves for so long is paramount. I hope that their new website exposes this fear within our culture and community, and discusses solutions/suggestions for heterosexual members to diminish its power over us, for all of our sakes and the sakes of future LDS boys and girls who will grow up attracted to the same sex, out of no choice of their own.
Years often pass before a homosexually oriented Church member finds even a SINGLE member he feels he/she can safely open up to. This is tragic and unacceptable. I hope your wife can sympathize with your fear of being discovered all those years (regarding your attractions ALONE—not just your unfaithfulness, because it was your FEELINGS/ATTRACTONS that created the original shame—and thus the cycle of secrecy!); the fear of being known is very real for those who grow up with homosexual orientation within religious communities and families.
No one gave me a signal that it was safe to trust them until I was well beyond the age of needing such a confirmation. Feeling that there is SOMEONE within your radar range with whom you could feel safe is a vibe people need to feel the MOMENT they suspect they might be same-sex attracted, NOT a decade and a half later, after they’ve passed their adolescence and graduated from college.
For many gay Mormons, the positive and spiritual experiences, and, quite frankly, the sacrifices they've made for the Church (mission!), and the feeling that church is their family is what makes the pain of secretly feeling like you don't fit in and fearing rejection so painful. It’s nothing more than wanting your extended “family” (your church) to understand you, to accept you and love you as you are.
I'm still curious what kept you from opening up to at least a bishop. Was the period of your adolescence a factor? I imagine a 50's kid would feel totally clueless, and although an 80's adolescent would be more informed and open about sexuality in general, he would have felt extreme hostility after the AIDS crisis (remember the Rock Hudson jokes?).
I just know that both ignorance/naivete AND hostility/self-righteousness need to be purged from the Church; and not left to the secular media to figure out how to eradicate.
“Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of these the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me” (Matthew 25:40).
Correction to above comment. I just realized you met your wife before your mission. First sentence should read, "Did you never consider telling a bishop about your sexuality before you married your wife?" (Instead of "met your wife.")
DeleteThoughtsFeelingsInstincts - Thank you so much for your quesions. Please know that we will answer as soon as possible, but it might be late tonight or tomorrow as we have a big family get together tonight. Thank you for your comments and interest.
DeleteTFI - Thanks for your comments and that is a good question.
DeleteYes, FEAR is truly a big part of the reason that I did not attempt to talk to anyone (including my Bishop), along with the fact that I literally didn't even think that there was anyone who knew anything about what was going on with me. I felt completely alone, I thought I was the only one, It's sad to admit, but I basically felt like I was a "freak. It DID NOT even occur to me that I could get help, advice, understanding, or anything - not even on my radar.
I do know one thing, I always had some degree of hope that I could be rescued from these "unnatural" feelings, thoughts, and attractions. I continued to have great hope that I could "pray" it away,... that I could "mission" it away,... and eventually, that I could "marry" it away. I think that if I would have talked to someone and they had told me that it was NEVER GOING AWAY, - I possibly might have killed myself. Why? ...
Because to me, a naive young farm boy from a very small Utah community, I knew absolutely NO ONE like me, I didn't see any representation of anyone like me on tv, and I desperately didn't want to be "me" (with those attractions). I just wanted to be "normal" (like everyone else). I did feel a sense of shame and great anxiety & fear of what would happen, and what people would think of me if anyone ever found out the horrible truth.
Even still, with all that I have learned, all that I've been through, and the amazing rescue that has occured for me to bring me to where I am today,.... I STILL have no desire to tell my secret. Only my wife, a couple of my children, and a handfull of family/friends know. (The majority of people in my life who know about my same sex attraction are other gay/ssa men, and some other MOR couples/friends).
BTW - I have, in the past 20 years, told and talked to several of my LDS Bishops along the way, maybe a total of 3-4, and although I believe they each did their best they knew how, and they were all very kind and forgiving and attempted to be understanding - it wasn't until a few years ago when I ended up with a wonderful Bishop who was just perfect for me. I'm sure, also, that it was not a coincidence that at the very time that "I" was "ready", the perfect Bishop for me came along. It was through him and his understanding, mercy, compassion, and love that I was able to find that peace that I had been hoping for all my life, I always knew that God would rescue me, and I testify that he has.
I
TFI - (Mrs. IDM here) I just wanted to share a few thoughts in reference to your comment - "I hope your wife can sympathize with your fear of being discovered all those years" -
DeleteYes, I do definitely sympathize with his fear. As a matter of fact, my heart still breaks for that little boy and young man. I also understand and respect his desires to continue to remain private even to this day.
I actually think that it is because of the love and understanding I have developed for him and his secret pain that I was able to stick around through all the hard times. Also, I have been continuously guided and comforted by my Father in Heaven through my own heartache and personal drama in relation to my husband's same sex attraction issues.
I personally believe that I was (in a unique way) prepared to be my husband's wife and to be able to "deal" with the mess that we lived through for alot of our marriage. It is an interesting story, that I am debating whether or not to tell on this blog. Although it is a wonderful and spiritual story, I feel quite protective of sharing such an amazing and special experience with the blog world. If you know what I mean. --- I'll think/pray about it. :)
I have a few thoughts about "the cycle of secrecy" that you mentioned. The secret nature of the "down low" and/or "cruzing" world is a sad, sad, truth. Mr. IDM says that the majority of those he associated with from that "underground world" were men like him, alot of them married to heterosexual woman, keeping their "secrets" to themselves, and drawn to addictive behavior by their lack of education, understanding, and realistic attitudes of their sexual attractions.
Hopefully we will see more and more understanding and acceptance that should ultimately foster better avenues for gay/ssa men and woman to learn & grow & get help if necessary so they can manage and mold their lives in healthy ways, as they determine what works best for them and they find their own authentic paths.
I hope and pray that anyone who is struggling and/or confused will have hope and faith that he/she is free to "Define Me".
I am an active Latter-day Saint, same-sex attracted, recently returned missionary young man. I have been aware of my same-sex attraction since childhood, but have refused to really confront the issue until just the last couple of months. Like you, I only recently discovered the LDS/SSA community via a blog I chanced upon. Before that I thought I was alone in this. I thank my Heavenly Father that I now have been able to better educate myself about this issue, learn how to deal with it in healthy ways, and join in the conversation.
ReplyDeleteHere is the issue: I desire nothing more than to marry and have a family. No goal has ever seemed more important to me. I have felt spiritual promptings indicating that marraige is attainable for me. I am not currently involved in any relationship. I understand that if/when I do become involved in a relationship that begins to develop into something serious, I will need to be honest and open with her about my same-sex attraction and allow her to decide if that is something she is willing to deal with or not.
My question is this: Have you (Mr. IDM) been able to develop a true, physical/sexual attraction for your wife? How? Is that attraction as strong as the attraction you feel for men? How long did it take to develop? What has the interaction been between emotional/spiritual attraction and physical/sexual attraction? What role has communication played in developing attraction and love? Sorry, I know I just threw a lot at you, and some of it may be very personal, but if you can provide some thoughts on at least some of what I asked I would appreciate it. I want to understand this as well as I can, so that I can be successful in receiving the same blessings that you have in my own life.
Thanks for opening up this dialogue and for your openness, people like me who are just trying to forge our way really appreciate it.
Unknown - thank you for your questions. I will try to answer as best I can.
DeleteNo, I would not say I have developed a "true" physical/sexual attraction for my wife (although she is very attractive), because I am still physically attracted to men. (I still have sexual thoughts that enter my mind but I am able to quickly dismiss those thoughts and not entertain them - I don't welcome them in and serve tea and crumpets) But I have a very close and loving relationship with my wife (of 30+ yrs)that spauwns a physical desire for a sexual/emotional connection with her. I personally feel that our sexual experiences are spiritual in nature and almost seem like a miracle every time. It is truly a blessing, we have great, completely fulfilling sex.
Hopefully, I have at least touched on most of your questions in my comments above.
Communication is key. I stress that there must be total and complete honesty, especially if trust has been violated. When trust is broken, only complete humility and honesty can get you back in the door of rebuilding a new relationship of trust and loyalty. Communication with our Father in Heaven is also essential. Prayer is where I gain all of my strength to mold my life and DEFINE MYSELF as a faithful Mormon man.
Unknown: Mrs. I Define Me here; I just wanted to add a couple of my thoughts to the things Mr. IDM has just shared with you.
DeleteI believe that one reason I, personally, have been able to stick with this marriage through even some very difficult times, is because of my husband's genuine humilty and honesty. It has not always been that way, and through those times when that was lacking, it was hell - but we somehow (with God's help) made it through to the amazing and wonderful relationship we now enjoy today. For us, it truly gets better and better.
Another thing I would like to mention to you is that my husband has always made it very clear to me that although he was not physically attracted to woman, he always loves having sex with me as it makes him feel most "balanced" & complete as a man. Still, he is definitely not bi-sexual, and is offended if people claim that must be the case (he thinks "hey - I think I'd know if I'm bi, and I know I am not" - lol)
I am even willing to share some quite personal stuff with you in hopes that you will have some concrete information to consider as you continue to learn and grow and mold your own life into what you feel is most authentic for you.
I am actually very grateful to be married to and having sex with such an amazing man who takes our physical & emotional relationship so seriously and does not just take it for granted. He notices the things about me that he is turned on by and tells me about these things regularly. Some of these things are more about what's inside of me, my personality, my spirituality, etc. Some things are actually physical like my soft skin, my long hair, and my long legs. I trust what he says and because of our completely open and honest relationship, I know that he is not just "schmoozin" me. ;) There are some other benefits as well, he is never bothered if I have hairy legs in bed... lol!
I, have also always known that I AM ATTRACTIVE, through my relationship with Jesus Christ, through prayer I have received great comfort in knowing that my husbands lack of attraction to me is not anything to do with me.
Thank you for you candid and informative responses. Let me recap a little just to make sure I understand what you are saying correctly:
DeleteSo, Mr. IDM, you do not experience a strong physical/sexual attraction to your wife, but are deeply in love with her on a more spiritual/emotional level, which allows you to desire to have with her the closeness and pleasure that comes with sexual intimacy. Your sexual connection is emotional, and not as based on the physical aspect as it would be for same-orientation couples. Communication and honesty has been the key for creating an atmosphere of trust and love in your sex life.
Mrs. IDM, your husband always makes you feel loved and is attentive to pointing out the physical things that he does find pleasing about you. He is open and honest and that makes you trust him and feel safe with him. Your self-image is good, so the fact that your husband is not deeply physically attracted to you does not debilitate you.
What I'm getting is that if there is openness and true love in a marraige, then that emotional love can make up what lacks in physical attraction, as long as both sides are committed to each other and committed to having a successful sex life. Am I understanding you correctly?
Thanks again for your willingness to talk about these issues.
Unknown:
DeleteBecause you got your answer from one couple, you may end up with the idea that that's how it is for most MOR's (mixed orientation relationships). Truth is, we are human, and our motivations, desires, and responses are as varied as there are people.
For me, there is a physical element in my attraction for my wife of 19 years. However, that element is weak compared to the desire to connect emotionally and spiritually. My desires for my wife are wrapped up in my desire to please her, and satisfy her needs more than they are to satisfy my own needs. For this reason, sex is a slow process, whereas for most guys it's "wham bam thank you ma'am." This is a really cool aspect of my sexuality as far as my wife is concerned, because the timing of my sexual response more closely matches the typical response timing for a woman.
There is a downside, and you and your prospective mate need to be aware of it. I've been in communication with a number of men in similar situations, and almost universally, their wives (and mine) often have to initiate sex or ask for it. It's not that we don't ever initiate things, just not as often as our wives would like. So your wife will have to have the confidence to initiate sex from time to time.
This doesn't mean that MORs dont work. Usually, men complain about not getting enough. Still, no one bats an eye when a man and woman decide to get married.
One more thing, about disclosure. Unless you are generally "out" in whatever social circles you find yourself in, disclosing your sexuality on the first date is not a good idea. Do it as soon as you get a sense that one of you is becoming attached. If you haven't told her by the fifth date, you are probably not being as honest with her as she deserves.
Arlo - Thanks for joining us. Your input and insights are so great.
DeleteAs we just read Unknown's comments, we were literally talking about the same thing you mentioned,-- that it is important to recognize that our comments relate to just one couple's experiences, and what works for us, and of course, there's a world of varied answers depending on who you talk to.
Unknown - we are impressed with your astute understandings of our statements and your determination to clearly understand by reiterating it back to us. (Are you sure you're just a young man, cause you sound like an well educated "psych" major - lol)
Yes, basically your observations are pretty much spot on, except that I want to clerify that I AM sexually and physically attracted to my wife to some degree (just not to the degree that I feel it towards men), and I agree with some of what Arlo has said as well in that it's a little slower process with my wife - which is ultimately a good thing, for her and for me as well.
However, I do want to say that unlike the majority of women that Arlo mentioned, (no offense to you Arlo), my wife actually rarely initiates sex, although she is more often than not "quite willing". For what it's worth, we have sex, on average, at least a couple of times a week. I know that my increased desire for more sex with her is directly related to my commitment to abstain from masterbation several years ago, which has definitely changed our relationship and our sex life for the better.
Thanks to all three of you for your perspectives, I truly do appreciate it. Haha yes, I promise you I am twenty-one years old. I'm just a nerd :). I have tried to research these issues (in a healthy way) because for as long as I have been aware of my sexuality I have, of course, thought about the impact it would have on my hopes for a marraige and family. I have heard the horror stories about MORs that have ended in disaster, and want to hear what others who have already traveled this road before me have learned. No need to re-invent the wheel, right? Obviously, I cannot seek advice on these issues from my parents, because neither of them has same-sex attraction. I have never personally known anyone that is involved in a MOR (that I am aware of), so I am very grateful to have discovered the LDS/SSA blogging community. Here I can get answers and hear personal stories and perspectives. I understand that every marraige will have its own unique set of strengths and challenges, and what works for one couple may not be what works for another. But hearing as many different perspectives as possible will provide more illumination of the issues at hand. All three of you (Mr. and Mrs. IDM and Arlo) have shared wonderful comments and advice, and have given me a lot to think about as I prepare myself for future relationships and marraige. Thanks!
DeleteUnknown - (Mrs. IDM here) Wow! I guess we just told the world how often we have sex.... maybe TMI! ?? ;) lol
DeleteAnyway, I have a couple of comments to add since we're on the subject, and since I applaud your efforts to learn as much as you can as you begin your journey to define your life in the way that best suits YOU.
Mr. IDM & I will both admit that it has not always been so great for us. We have been through A LOT, we'll be doing some posts with the details eventually. It is amazing that we have made it to where we are, and we hope that no other individuals will have to experience the hell we have lived through. We would not want you to think that it has all been easy, but it could have been a lot less hard if we had learned from, and paid attention to, those who have traveled this road before us. Hopefully you will stay focused and close to God, as that is the key, in our opinion.
I also just wanted to add to the comments about wifes initiating se. Actually, for us, in the early years of our marriage, I DID initiate it alot more, and I think that it ended up to be a good thing for us and possibly even imparative at that time. But, as the years have gone on, and for several reasons, I have backed off (not necessarily intentionally) and somehow we have just evolved into something completely different than it used to be, in a lot of good and wonderful ways.
I testify that the best thing that ever happened to our marriage/relationship, other than Mr. IDM's decision to repent and turn his heart, mind, and soul to God, is when he committed to abstain from masterbation. Alot of people seem to believe that it's normal, and not a big deal, but for us, abstinance from it has been such a blessing to us both and we have experienced a new power and strength to our relationship (and sex life) more than we ever thought possible or could have imagined. It's an amazing and wonderful thing.
I don't know how this applies to a single, young man such as yourself, and I don't profess to have any advice and/or answers for you or anyone else in that respect, but I felt it was something that should be mentioned, for what it's worth.
BTW - We are working on a post on the subject of masterbation, and Mr. IDM has some wonderful insights regarding "the easiest path, and the path less traveled". It's gonna be good :D Stay tuned. ~~~
All I can say is "thank you" once again for your openness about these very personal issues. I see that the path ahead of me will probably not be easy. But it gives me hope to see that what I want to accomplish IS possible. Don't worry about TMI, it's for a good cause! :) Maybe it doesn't all apply to me now, but it will someday.
DeleteThanks again and I will definitely be following your blog!
Regarding masturbation and porn--it really is best to be sober from those things, as well as be celibate, for a length of time before marriage. So young men who struggle with any of those issues are strongly encouraged to get help so that they can prepare themselves for a healthy relationship going forward.
DeleteIf long term sobriety is difficult to achieve, may I suggest considering the possibility of going to sexaholics anonymous meetings to help you attain positive sobriety.
How do you think you would be impacted if God spoke to the modern day profit and stated gay marriages and lifestyles were acceptable?
ReplyDeleteTammy - Do you really think that if this actually happened that I would give up my happy life, my wonderful wife, my children and my grandchildren and walk away from these blessings because God changed His mind??
DeleteI didn't ask you if you'd leave. I asked how it would impact you.
DeleteThat's an important question, Tammy. The impact would be minimal, since I have already made a commitment. I know you're going to question my sexuality for saying this, but if my wife died and I remarried, it would still be to a woman. That is because my marriage has been great. My so-called gay life, not so much. I went "straight" not so much out of religious pressure as much out of an enormous unhappiness with my life as a gay man.
DeleteTammy, I tried my best to be the good gay boy. I marched, demonstrated, campaigned, dated, loved, did everything I was "supposed" to do to live a happy, affirming gay life. Except it didn't work. So if I got to do it all over again, but this time I got permission from God to be with a man, I'd still find a woman.
Yes, I'm primarily attracted to guys. Paradoxically, though, life with a woman turned out to be where it's at for me. The only feeling of internal conflict that I have of seeing gay couples is jealousy that I didn't get to have that, no matter what I tried.
Sorry my posts above were so short - I was on my iPad and I hate that little keyboard fro my "blond-winded" posts.
DeleteHi Arlo. Thanks for replying. Your position is an interesting one. So, you gave a couple of guys a try and it didn't work out so you went to women. That is a different perspective than one I thought I'd get. I don't know anyone who has done that. Can you imagine the influx of gay relationships if straight people said, "Yeah, I went out with a few guys and it didn't work out so I became a lesbo." Interesting. What do you think would have happened if you would have falling in love with a guy? What if your soulmate was a guy? Would you still reject that life? (Before or after your current marriage - I'm have no desire in promoting people leave their current spouses.)
IDM - I posed this question because I think it is absolutely key to this issue. It's kind of a chicken or egg thing for me. Are you living a straight life because of our belief? Would you still live a straight life if there wasn't condemnation in your choice of partner? If sexual attraction wasn't taboo, what would we look like as a society? If everyone believed as I do (and I think you all have expressed this same level of acceptance) that God supports all love, how would people respond to finding their choice of mate?
I am sad for anyone who is struggling, of course, but people struggling in this area is especially dear to me because I am so completely comfortable in my sexuality.
So, my question comes from genuine interest, it's not judgmental at all.
Tammy, it wasn't a "couple" of guys, though I wasn't the promiscuous type either. And yes, I did fall seriously in love with at least two of them, and got my heart royally stomped on. I was competing with another guy for the attentions of one, and lost out. The other returned to a girlfriend I didn't know he had. Oh, and there was a third that my Mother ran off. It took a while for me to forgive her for that. Honestly, if any of those had worked out, I would have been a very happy gay man. They didn't, and I think that my Heavenly Father wisely protected me from that because He had something better in mind for me.
DeleteI am seriously not the only one who tried the gay life, and found that it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. I have a number of friends who have similar stories.
The reverse is also sometimes true. Some women end up with a string of losers, and from that experience decide that they can no longer trust guys, and take a different route with their lives. Men discover same sex attractions later in life, after some time as a married man. Human sexuality is a lot more fluid than people seem to realize.
I want to open up a little more, Tammy. A little honesty is always good. I STILL get insanely jealous to this day of gay couples who seem to have it together. There's this little voice inside of me that whines, "why couldn't I have had that?" "Was I too ugly, to stupid, too much of a loser, so unattractive that nobody wanted me?" It's still a shadow that I deal with today, even though I have a GREAT life with my wife, and know intellectually that I'm attractive to my wife, and am anything but ugly, stupid, a loser, whatever.
DeleteThere is a significant amount of pain involved in the fact that no matter what I tried, I couldn't get a guy to love me. That hurt then, and if I dwell on it too much, it still hurts.
Tammy, I always like your sense of humor, and as I read your statement I chuckled as I thought you were making a joke when you said "I don't know anyone who has done that" in this reply...
Delete"So, you gave a couple of guys a try and it didn't work out so you went to women. That is a different perspective than one I thought I'd get. I don't know anyone who has done that."
....then, it occured to me that maybe you were not being silly, and that you might have not realized what you had said. And, maybe I just somehow misunderstood your life situation, so I'm just asking (please don't take offense if my writing skills are lacking because I don't mean to offend).
Isn't that kinda what happened to your wife, Joanne? I might have missed something in your writings, but I thought that you said that she was married and believed herself to be heterosexual, until she met you, and even still, she does not really consider herself a lesbian, but a "Tambian". :D
So, just for the record - lol - were you being facetious, or what? (ps - do I even know what "facetious" means?...) ;)
Hi IDM,
DeleteI can see where my comment could be confusing. The difference is she didn't give up on men because "it didn't work out" but rather because fell in love with me. So, sexual orientation/attraction was never a box she put herself in (after she realized she could be attracted to a woman). She has never struggled with SSA the entire time we've been together because she isn't attracted to anyone else.
I think she doesn't identify as lesbian because she cannot see herself with anyone else if anything happened to me. I did ask her and she just can't picture it but if push come to shove she doesn't think she could go back to a man. "They're hairy and yucky." ;-)
So, I guess she's more lesbo on the spectrum but her radar screams "Tambian"!!! :-D
Thanks Tammy (& Joanne). I see what you're saying, what a cool blessing for you both.
DeleteI'm laughing as I realize the complexities and uniqueness of "attraction". I have always been totally into "hairy", ie: mustache, gotee, hairy chest, hairy legs. I LIKE EM :D --- on men - not on me ;)
Well, it's a good thing cuz there's hairy dudes out there and they need love too!
DeleteWow! I'm learning so much from these questions and answers! Thank you!
ReplyDeleteI've been hesitating to ask this for a long time, because it's really, really personal so please feel free to not answer it if you don't feel comfortable doing so. You can even delete it! Btw, I'm not asking just out of curiosity but because I believe the answer could help my husband and me in our sex life. Okay, here goes...
Awhile back after his coming-out post, Josh Weed said on his blog that when he and Lolly have sex he makes a point of not fantasizing about men in his mind, but rather focusing on being there with his wife. I was very impressed by his faithfulness, even in his mind, when I read this, but also very curious how that would work. My husband is straight, but I know that he (and from what I know, the majority of men are) is very affected VISUALLY when it comes to getting aroused. It would be much harder for him to get aroused if there was no visual stimuli present (a.k.a. me) that he was attracted to. So what I'm wondering is, how does a man who is not attracted visually to his wife keep his thoughts on his wife and still get aroused physiologically-speaking?
Thank you so much for your willingness to be so open.
I think my husband Arlo answered this up above to some extent when he said, "For me, there is a physical element in my attraction for my wife of 19 years. However, that element is weak compared to the desire to connect emotionally and spiritually. My desires for my wife are wrapped up in my desire to please her, and satisfy her needs more than they are to satisfy my own needs.". In other words, he gets turned on just knowing that I am being turned on.
ReplyDeleteRebekah - It's a good question, and I'm sure something that alot of people wonder about. I am willing to answer it because I also think that what I have learned could help any marriage.
ReplyDeleteFirst, since you mentioned the idea of thinking of other men when having sex with my wife, I want to make it quite clear that, for me, there can be absolutely no thoughts or fantasies of other men when I'm having sex with my wife. It will totally "short circuit" the experience for me, and it would certainly interfere with the wonderful spirit of our special love.
In answer to your questions, there's basically two parts to this answer - 1. our early years of marriage and 2. Now -
1. It has probably worked for us from the very beginning because of the love that developed between us as we wrote letters throughout my mission. But, to be honest, I WAS worried that it might not work. Maybe back then it worked because of a couple of things; my typical "young man" sex drive, and my wife was "not shy" either.
Yes, the "visual" stimuli was lacking, but not totally missing, because although I was NOT AT ALL into noticing, or turned on by woman, my wife's body & beautiful face was pleasing to me and, although I didn't personally "see" her as a "HOTTIE" like other's told me she was. I was/am always into having sex with her because I was/am turned on by touch (both me touching her and her touching me - body to body contact -soft skin, cozy warmth, etc.) I find that recently I do more flirting, planning, and teasing, (with my wife) and look forward to getting together. Just thinking about sex (with her) is usually a turn on for me. BTW - at times when I was unfaithful it definitely negatively impacted our sex life.
2. Now days (and for the past few years) our sex life has been GREAT! and has totally been getting better and better. Since I have changed my life by turning my heart, soul & mind to God, I have repented of my infidelity, and have learned to control my thoughts, I am amazed at how wonderful and completely fulfilling our sex life is. Now, I cultivate my thoughts of sex with my wife, and I dismiss my thoughts of men. It's not all dramatic- or torture- or anything like that either-- it's comfortable, gives me peace, and increases my love for my wife, and, I more fully feel her love for me as well.
MOST IMPORTANT is what I have learned about masterbation. For me, after some time of abstaining from it, I noticed an increase desire to have sex with my wife. I also realized that I could not masterbate to heterosexual fantasies, but found it easy to masterbate to homosexual fantasies, which actually gave me motivation to stop masterbating all together. I realized just what a selfish act it was for me, where I could play out any fantasy and I did not have to interact with anyone. The problem with that is that I was missinig out on all the good stuff,...the human interaction, the sharing, the closeness, the vulnerablity, the excitement, and the true LOVE. Sex for me now is truly a spiritual experience, it feels like a miracle every time, and I feel very "healthy"- "balanced"- "at peace"-and "complete"- as a man. I no longer have feelings that I'm "missing out" on something.
"Married2OneRescued" - Thanks for pointing that out! I agree; that does help answer my question. I think both the husband and the wife focusing on making their spouse happy and meeting their needs more than on themselves is the ideal way to approach intimacy in all marriages! Thank you.
Delete"I Define Me" - Thank you so much for sharing. I think it is wonderful that you and your wife have been able to grow in your marriage to such a wonderful place. It is helpful to get a glimpse of how that has worked for you. I think that you are right that it can help a lot of people and marriages to hear your story. I'm glad to count myself as one of them! Thank you again.
You are promoting, intentionally or unintentionally, young confused gay Mormon men marrying young straight women. All of the writing about how to have a great sex life, how great it all is, etc, you are promoting it.
ReplyDeletePLEASE, think of the young women who marry these gay boys - yes, they will now know the boys are gay but come on, the girls are what 19? 20? 21? - they have stars in their eyes.
It is completely fair for a young woman to want to be married to a man who won't have to have a bunch of rules to be turned on by her. and it is NOT just about sex obviously - but marriage is hard enough - PLEASE THINK OF THE YOUNG WOMEN. Yes, once in awhile it does work but the boys who are writing to you here are DESPERATE. I'm not saying stay silent - heck no, shout from the rooftops your story. But just know you have taken your story and made it into a story that young gay mormon men will use to marry young women. And that is completely unfair to the women.
Enough,
DeleteI am the adult daughter of Mr, and Mrs IDM.
What you’re worried about is very valid. I believe my mom and dad agree with everything you said.( Mom Dad? am I right?)
This is why they make very clear the hardships and HELL they went through as well. They also put a disclaimer that this is HARDER than a "normal" marriage, and that much of their story was a RECKLESS way to live.
Through it all they found a way through the fire and fog, and their marriage survived more than MOST married people I know.
I personally agree with you, these desperate young men NEED to be OPEN, HONEST, and AWARE of the road they choose. Success stories in every option and pathways ARE PARAMOUNT for any person who is struggling in how, what, where, when and why.
Take a drug addict wife. If she is hurt, broken down, feeling alone, and desperate, it is essential she finds a group of people who have not only experienced her story, (or close to it), but also walked through the HELL that might be her marriage and her life, and came out the other side with wisdom, understanding, and hope for the future.
You can take the drug addicts themselves apply the same idea. Thus AA.
I believe the same is true for MANY BROKEN MARRIAGES.
People (hetero or homo) need to have the hard truths about relationships, and what hard work and selflessness really is. How to make a marriage work spans WAY more than sexuality. I can't count how many friends and family I know who within their marriage need much of this exact advice, about Love, Commitment,Communication,Understanding,Realism, and putting others needs in front of your own.
Hopefully not only do the struggling gay men gain a clearer idea of what they want in a relationship (MOR or Same Sex relationship) but EVERY person struggling in a "misguided, or seemingly hopeless" relationship can see that by turning the negatives into positives, ANYONE can have a better committed relationship.
My husband and I are both straight and we get as much out of my parents story as anyone else might get if they see it with an open mind, open heart, and a realistic view of how they want to DEFINE their lives.
I would like to weigh in on this; since I am surely the "young confused gay Mormon man" that enoughenough is referring to:
DeleteI asked the question I asked, not because I am trying to decide whether or not to pursue a mixed orientation marriage, but because a marriage has ALWAYS been my goal. I have never considered pursuing any other type of relationship, and never will. The reason for that is NOT just because of social or religious pressure. It isn't because I feel like that is what I HAVE to do. I want to marry a woman, because it really is what I desire. You might say that is selfish of me, that I will be some kind of predator subjecting some poor, unsuspecting young woman to a lifetime without fulfillment and love. But don't you see, that is EXACTLY what I want to prevent. I will not marry someone who I do not truly love and who doesn't love me. If I love someone, then of course I would not want to hurt them.
You said that young women "have stars in their eyes". That may be true, but I think that the type of shallow, fleeting infatuation you are referring to would, for most people, evaporate upon learning that the person they are infatuated with is gay. There is the very real possibility of a girl becoming too attached to pull away BEFORE learning about my attractions, and that is a good reason for that honest conversation to happen fairly early on; before anyone becomes too emotionally involved to pull away. If I am to marry, then my intended will need to understand what my same-sex attraction means and what the potential hardships would be LONG BEFORE agreeing to marry me. If she couldn't accept that or didn't want to take that risk, I would understand completely and agree that both she and I would need to keep looking.
I understand that such a relationship could very easily end in disaster. I understand that such a marriage would be hard; that somebody could get hurt. It could lead to a lot of loneliness. But what kind of marriage DOESN'T have those risks? Marriages fail every day, for thousands of different reasons. You said that it would be unfair to a young woman for me to have a mixed orientation relationship with her. But it is equally unfair to a young woman to involve her in a relationship with a man who is abusive, or alcoholic, or has a wondering eye, or is more dedicated to his career than to her, or addicted to pornography, or is subject to any number of other issues. My point is that ALL marriages will have their challenges. ANY marriage can be a hell. I realize that a mixed orientation marriage presents challenges that are unique, but THE PRESENCE OF challenges is not unique, in fact it is standard. My situation in life will lead to struggles in marriage, I know that. But I have seen countless of marriages that face equally grave, though diverse struggles. Some have failed and others have lasted, but that depends much more on how those involved choose to deal with their challenges than it does on the challenge itself. I know that the stories shared here are not necessarily how my story will turn out in every detail. I don't expect it to. I asked what I asked hoping to gather a little more perspective on this issue, so that when the time comes for my own decision making I will be a little more aware of the reality, both the good and the bad. I am grateful that there are those willing to talk about these hard issues. Thanks to people like them my choice will not be made in ignorance.
Sorry for the long response. Truly, I am thankful for enough's comment. These decisions require a lot of serious thought and prayer and openness. I understand that you are just trying to prevent people from making hasty decisions that can have horrible consequences. Believe me when I say that I do not take this lightly. I have no desire to enter into a marriage destined for failure. Thank you for helping me to think a little more deeply about these issues.
Unknown, if you don't mind me asking, why do you want to marry a woman?
DeleteAlso, what do you think you would think if one of your straight friends was determined to marry a man?
Enough, for my perspective, see my post at:
Deletehttp://onerescued.blogspot.com/2012/12/why-my-blog-isnt-squeaky-clean.html
Tammy, I cannot answer for Unknown, but I can answer for me. It's because I fell in love. Unbelievable, I know, but it happens.
Arlo - (Mrs. IDM here) I just read your post at the above link. Really greats comments. Your insights is so helpful and we appreciate your involvement here on our blog as well. Please keep it up - your perspective is definitely needed.
DeleteTammy, thank you for your question. I read it several hours ago, and have been reflecting on it ever since. I have been trying to explore my own feelings and answer that question myself for some time now, and your asking me now is helping me to be able to verbalize my thoughts.
DeleteBefore I begin, let me just clarify a little my previous comment. I do hope to marry a woman, but I will not force it to happen. Relationships are complicated and complex, and some people wait for years for one to work out. Other people wait a whole lifetime and never find the love they are seeking. If that love never comes along, then I will conform myself to a life of celibacy.
So, why do I want to marry a woman? To be completely honest I cannot separate this issue from my religious convictions. I don't want to sound preachy, but I simply cannot answer this question without a candid discussion of my faith. I know that this is an issue which causes many in the LGBT community a lot of exasperation with regards to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but the doctrine of the Church is absolutely and eternally based upon the nuclear family. Before I go any farther I want to make it abundantly clear that when I said in my last comment that my reasons for wanting to marry a woman are not based upon social or religious pressure I was telling the truth. I do not, nor have I ever, felt repressed or persecuted by the doctrines of the Church. I do not feel the need to make my life decisions in order to gain the approbation of other people. This may be hard for some to believe, given the fact that I have not "come out" to anyone, but the opinions of other people matter to me very little. My reasons for not coming out are another matter. But in the end there are two opinions that DO matter to me: they are the opinion that God has of me, and the opinion that I have of myself. At the risk of sounding like a religious zealot, I will tell you that I truly do love my Heavenly Father deeply. I honestly try to do nothing that would damage my relationship with Him. This isn't because I am afraid of the wrath of an angry God, but because I seek the approbation of a loving Father. I have learned a lot of things spiritually in recent months and years, and one of those things is about trusting Him and trusting in His plan for me. That is hard, but I have seen time and time again that when I do so, I am happy. Perhaps this all sounds very cliche and simplistic to you, but believe me when I say that it is the absolute reality in my life. I know that there is no other path to true, eternal happiness outside of living His commandments and following His plan. If it proves impossible for me to marry a woman, then I will remain celibate.
Okay, I hit the word limit, so here's the rest:
DeleteWhat I just discussed is definitely the biggest reason why I hope to marry a woman, but it is not the only reason. It is true that I am attracted predominantly to men, especially physically. But I am not attracted EXCLUSIVELY to men. I have at times felt very real romantic feelings for women. I have also felt romantic feelings for guys, and for me those feelings have been basically selfish. Please don't take that to mean that I think that all homosexual love is selfish, I don't believe that is the case for everyone. I have just seen that FOR ME that has been the case. I don't like what I become when I am interested in another guy (petty, jealous, possessive, etc.). But when I have been in love with a girl, I have felt that love build me up and bring me peace. I also greatly desire the blessings of having a family and children. Partly because of my beliefs, and partly because of other deeply personal reasons and needs that I am finding very hard to know how to describe.
These are some of my reasons; at least those that I am at present able to articulate.
As to your other question, if a straight friend of mine decided he wanted to marry a guy, I would of course find it to be very odd. I may not agree with his choice, but in the end I would have to respect his decision even if I didn't understand it, and love him just the same. I see your point, it does sound ridiculous, but all of us have our reasons for doing the things we do and desiring the things we desire. I try (occasionally unsuccessfully) to not judge others for their choices and I hope that they will not judge me for mine.
Thank you again for your question, Tammy. I'm sorry I'm so long winded in expressing myself, it's a bit of a curse I have... I really do appreciate hearing other perspectives and having my opinions challenged or questioned. It helps me to learn and deepen my understanding and convictions. Thanks!
DeleteUnknown - (Mrs. IDM here) Wow, what wonderful comments, beautiful thoughts, and refreshing honesty. Your "name" here may be UNKNOWN.... but through your exceptional writing ability, your SPIRIT is not unknown, as we feel of your amazing strong spirit through your words.
DeleteI think it is so totally cool that you are able to express alot of the same feelings and beliefs that Mr. IDM has, and desires to, express. He is working today, and I know he will want to respond to you when he gets home, but until then, I wish to share a few things with you.
Our "MO" is usually for me to read comments and responses to him. (we just enjoy the closeness, and "team spirit" of reading these things together) Either I am reading from my phone while we are traveling or lounging around, etc. -or- I am reading from our home office computer while he reclines in the big leather chair next to me (he works so hard, I like him to just chill everytime he gets a chance) -or- I am reading to him over the phone as he is often literally a world away (because he job takes him all over the world). Currently he has been home for the holidays so everything you have written, as I have read it to him, has been a wonderful thing for me to see, as everytime, he gets tears in his eyes, stretches back, and basically says "WOW! - this is who we are doing this for, Unknown, and maybe others like him, who are so alone and possibly frustrated and confused but are desperately and/or with great determination searching for answers, and have a healthy desire to learn all they can to make wise and informed decisions as they DEFINE themselves and their lives".
We will continue to restate that we are not encouraging you or anyone to choose a similar path as we have, hopefully no one will take the path we have because it includes a whole lot of years of unhealthy crap, confusion, heartache, and hell. But, we know that there are others with similar beliefs, feelings, and desires - and hopefully it is helpful to find someone who understands and shares in those.
It might be interesting to share with you that as we talked about taking our notes that we have been preparing to be "a book" and decided to share it as "a blog" instead. We talked about the immediate feed back that would come, and worried a little about the "negative" responses, and the opposition we might encounter. As Mr. IDM speaks alot about the "religious" aspects and always goes back to "God" in most of his thoughts, I, in the beginning said, well, do you really want to go there? - because you will be met with alot of opposition and even anger, etc." and what he said touched my spirit and I knew that he knew the absolute direction this blog must take as he said, "absolutely I want to go there, for me, that's what it's ALL about". I know that he is inspired as we work together on this blog, and, for us...God the Father, and His son Jesus Christ, and the Atonement IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT.
Unknown, I am grateful that you are also not embarrassed or intimidated or ashamed to speak your truth, share your beliefs, and live your life in accordance to the things you deeply believe.
We all know that everyone does not share the same beliefs, that's ok, that's actually good. I appreciate Tammy's interest to understand beliefs and lifestyles that are different than her own without attacks, judgements, and ridicule. Hopefully we are all learning and growing here and fostering some genuine tolerance, understanding, and love. Unknown, "YOU ROCK! - ROCK ON!"
PS to Unknown...
Deletehey, don't feel bad about reaching the "word limit", I do it allllll the time. ;) As a matter of fact, Tammy coined a phrase just for people like us, who are long-winded in the blogging world. We are "BLONG - WINDED". (or as Tammy once typed, BLOND-WINDED, which for me fits perfect, because I AM a blonde, and I have to admit that often, I'm a dizzyblonde (oh shoot, it just occured to me that the "dizzyblonde" in me might have already been detected through me writing - YIKES :/ !!)
Unknown - Thanks for your vulnerability and for sharing and answering my questions. I am always looking to grow as a person and, just like everyone else, I hit roadblocks and walls that I have trouble getting around.
DeleteAs the IDM's know, I try to approach all of these topics with an open, non-judgemental mind so please know all of my questions come from there and for a deep desire to understand and grow spiritually.
My biggest question at this point is in how one makes a decision based on another man's interpretation of what he thinks god wants and how god wants him to behave. I have not lived my life (nor was I raised) within a religious institution. My mother felt very strongly that we should discover our own path to spirituality. We used to discuss the workings of miracles, God, Universe, Good vs Evil, etc with an open mind of discovery. I trust that I am always guided by my source, my guides. I get direction and messages from the Universe and I have listened to them and lead my life accordingly. Which sounds very similar to you (and others) spiritual guidance, we just call it different things.
I started questioning my sexuality in my teenage years. I wasn't repulsed by guys but was much more drawn to women. I finally explored that part of myself in my late teens/early twenties and it all clicked for me then, that is where I was supposed to be. I had a few relationships with women and though they fit better than my relationships with men I did not feel complete until Joanne came into my life. From that moment on, everything fell into place. I found my soulmate, my other half, my perfect fit. There was no doubt in my mind (and still isn't 16 years later) that we were meant to be together, that God gave me the gift of her! We are a model to our kids, they strive to achieve the same level of love, understanding, trust, respect, and oneness that we have (they're all straight). We have such respect for each other and live our lives completely together. We never argue, we've never hurt each other, and we continue to expand and grow as individuals and couples through our experiences together. There's no denying this relationship, this connection. There is no denying this once-in-a-lifetime love. No one ever has or ever will compare to her. I am full. I am complete.
I do not feel any judgement from a higher being. I would have missed all of this, her, us, this amazing life if my religious belief would have denied me pursuing this type of relationship. Before "us" I was very unhappy, very unfulfilled, and always felt like something was missing. I have not had one moment of those feelings for the last 16 years and I've never felt closer to spirit as I do in basking in the love of my wife.
I support people falling in love. I support people beating the odds (whatever they may be). But I do worry that some may miss the wonderfulness that I have because of another's interpretation of what God wants. I do understand that everyone has their own path and I truly believe there is a reason for everything (even a reason for me posting these questions and not being LDS).
But, I pose the same question to you that I did above. How would your perception, vision, goals for the future change if sexual orientation or the definition of an acceptable family unit changed in your religious doctrine. This is a very real possibility since the mormon faith seems to be a fluid belief. You have living profits that receive divine guidance, so what if the message changed. How would that change you? You may say that you believe it just as strongly through your connection with god and know with 100% of your being that it is "true". But I believe the same thing about my situation and other religions believe the same about their belief. So, who's "right"?
Please understand that I am not challenging your religion, I am just curious as to how attached your decisions are to the messages and interpretations of man.
I am fairly attached to the words of the prophets, both living and dead. Sometimes, that can be a problem, because they are, after all, men, but most times it has been a real salvation for me and my family. I thought for a while about the direction the LDS Church has taken, and some of the course corrections that have been made over the years. My current feeling is this: at no time in history has the LDS Church ever been on exactly the right course. Like a sailboat that tacks it's way towards its final destination, the Church, an imperfect institution led by imperfect men, tacks its way forward, constantly making course corrections as guided by The Lord Jesus Christ. That's why we have a living prophet, someone to make those course corrections as inspired from above.
DeleteI do have faith that as I follow the counsel of the prophets, both living and in the scriptures, that I will be able to keep my own boat moving towards my Heavenly Father.
Tammy - thanks for your comments and desire to understand others' feelings and beliefs. This is a beautiful story of wonderful love. It's interesting to me how closely the names could be changed to "our names" and the story is, in many ways, the same. I love hearing about your personal path to complete fulfillment and an amazing life and love. We too, have found such peace, complete fulfillment, and amazing love that we wouldn't trade for the world.
DeleteAlthough it seems often in your questions that you are genuinely perplexed by "our" path, because it seems so "opposite" from what you have and do experience and believe and feel. The best way to possibly help you understand (if that truly IS your desire - and I hope that it really is)is through one sentence that Mr. IDM said in response to your questions. "I think she really believes that "religion" is THE problem...so I doubt we will ever be able to get her to understand that, for me, "religion" IS THE ANSWER."
I, Mrs. IDM, don't believe we have to "determine" WHO IS RIGHT. I believe that "religion" can mean alot of different things to all kinds of different people, and that any individuals' perceptions of "God" and their beliefs of what "He" desires for them, can be, and ARE, as diverse as the individuals themselves. Not to mention, what individuals' desire for themselves and turn to the God that they believe in for help, comfort, guidance, blessings, and even miracles in their behalf as they mold and manage their lives.
Tammy, sometimes you ask for your readers to entertain a hypothetical, so may I respectfully ask you to consider, if you will, an idea that might help you see the issue in a little different light. (please don't read this as forceful or snarky, I seriously don't mean it to be)
What if....the God that YOU love, was raised with, and believe in, (the Universe, or your source, or what ever feels most comfortable to you) IS such a wonderful, miraculous, and loving "being" that "He" (she, it, etc.) is willing and able to help you find your most authentic path to true peace and happiness, and "He" also loves Mr. IDM (Josh Weed & those like them) enough to help them find "their" most authentic path to true peaace and happiness, as well.
What if....God is alot of things to alot of different people.
What if... we quit trying to figure out who is "right", quit judging (& condemning) earthly men (religious leaders) for their "interpretations of what God wants", and not judge or dismiss "your" mother's strong belief that we should discover our own path to spirituality, and quit assuming that if an individual believes in a specific religion then it means that they a blindly and mindlessly following earthly men's interpretations, and quit discounting the reality that they can and do have their OWN relationships with God that "they" HAVE GENUINELY discovered as their OWN path to spirituality, and are happy to have found THEIR peace and happiness through their OWN relationship with God, and, their religious beliefs that they have "discovered" fit most closely with "their own path to spirituality" (even if it has been a "different path with a different ending" than your).
What if..... the real beauty and miracle of "spirituality" is that GOD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS, and all we really need to ACCEPT is that He (she, it, etc.) is out there- for everyone- in some way, and He (she, it, etc. )WILL and DOES hear our pleas and answer our prayers and guide us along our path and literally allows us to each take whichever path we desire, and gets pleasure in seeing us and helping us find peace, happiness, and love.
cont. from above....
DeleteI personally believe you when you say that you HAVE found peace, happiness, and love - and I also believe that the God that you was raised to discover has guided you and blessed you along your path, and that "He" is pleased with your happiness and contentment of your life. I know that He loves you just as much as I know that he loves me, and Mr. I Define Me.
I seriously DO NOT question your spiritual path, or the way your mother raised you, why do you continue to question mine? - ours?
I guess I'm not explaining myself correctly. I absolutely agree with everything you are saying and I also celebrate the happiness you have found in each other. I totally get that everyone is on their own path with their own guidance and their own experiences. I also agree that spirituality comes in many different shapes and forms. And I truly believe that because I don't think there is a one size fits all when it comes to spirituality. Your "what ifs" above is exactly where I live. I'm not judging or condemning.
DeleteI believe you both have found peace, happiness and love. I do not subscribe to the belief that you should NOT be in this relationship because one of you identifies as gay. But, that's kinda my whole point.
*Putting on my rose-colored glasses to explain. I envision people finding their soulmate and being OK with the package they're delivered in. I think if we limit our choices to only one set of people, that we may be possibly missing out on our "one". Perhaps Unknowns "one" is wrapped in a woman's package which is why he feels so drawn to marry a woman though he identifies as gay. I think the power of our soulmate is stronger than our physical desires.
There are fanatics in every religion and there are also religions that brainwash their followers (I'm not claiming that Mormonism or you fit into those groups). But what does fascinate me is these people truly believe what they have been taught...even the extremes of what they've been lead to believe. So, if that can happen in an extreme religion, can it also happen in any religion? Heck, not only religion but what our families and communities have instilled in us? It seems very limiting and a bit scary from my perspective.
I'm certainly not claiming that any of you have done this or are misguided. But as an outsider reading about people who are planning on this being their path it perplexes me. You are already there, Arlo is already there, The Weeds are already there and you have found peace there. It's obvious that it is where you are meant to be. But, for those starting out on that path (and with us encouraging them to research and talk to people, etc) I think it's also important to assess if this is truly God or man talking if their religious belief is the driving force.
Does that make sense? And believe me when I say, I support you and your decisions and your beliefs and your situation. I'm not judging at all. Just trying to wrap my pea brain around something I had never experienced myself.
Tammy,
Delete"Putting my rose colored glasses" on to explain some fundamental differences (bias) I may have with your personal story.
I accept you, your wife, and your story because I trust what you say, and I have faith in your character and translation of your story.
That being said, I can also point out some things that would ultimately perplex me. I do not know your whole story, but in regards to the amount of questions you ask to, as you say, "understand" people like my dad or unknown, your agenda to " wrap my pea brain around something I have never experienced myself" , seems like you are running circles to no end. Respectfully.
My perspective of your situation could go over much the same.
Things you have stated about your life and relationship, I feel "perplexed" or "unsure" of. I admit, I do not know the whole story, but my idea of the pros and cons and possible "fall out" or misguiding’s you and your wife have been through, (breaking up family and children), are something you may never convince me of how important "love" is between two people compared to the commitment, and sacrifice it takes to KEEP a FAMILY TOGETHER.
I feel like this may be the same way you look at religion.
I personally have never been in a situation where I felt I had to choose between LOVE and Keeping my family together. So rightfully you may tell me I am ignorant to your decisions and life.
I feel right now like I would never ever ever break up my family because I fell in love with someone else. Only over Abuse, Adultry, or Addiction, and even then I would WORK SO HARD to make it work so my family could be together.
Tammy I do support you and your wife, because I take value in what people tell me about what they believe, if it includes happiness and contentment for their souls.
So why would it matter if their religious beliefs ( as dictated by prophets, pastors, preachers, bishops, gurus, or witch doctors) were a driving force in their personal path?
Love was your driving force, and although we all might not see eye to eye with each decision, I am happy you’re happy. I will accept you and your wife, I will keep my own personal bias about you, and your life to myself, and try to learn from you, and widen my love, compassion and acceptance.
How often you question the church specifically in regards to someone’s personal decisions, comes across often that you are trying to “prove wrong” or put down the church, its leaders, and teachings, but mostly anyone who believes it.
I see you feel you are trying to understand why people would follow something you do not understand, so Tammy I will be totally frank with you here.
You will not understand until you go get a Book of Mormon. You read it prayerfully cover to cover. You listen to the prophets speak. You open your heart and pray to god for the knowledge and understanding. Then maybe you will have a change of heart Tammy and understand why people like my dad, Arlo, unknown, and soooosoososo many others make the decisions they do.
In light of this discussion, my question for the IDMS is - if you feel that a gay life is not right for Mr. IDM and in fact against what God would want - can that be extrapolated out to others - that is, do you feel that God is against all gay relationships? If it is just your path then it is just your path - but I believe, and I could be wrong, that you ultimately feel that ALL gay relationships are against what God wants.
DeleteAnd Jr. IDM, it feels like a rather low blow to bring up Tammy's wife's former relationship as a way of silencing her. (which is what I take from you saying that you will keep your personal bias to yourself, obviously also wanting her to do the same).
I read great honesty in her comments - and not an agenda to prove the church 'wrong' as you suggest. And I also suspect that even if Tammy read the Book of Mormon from oover to cover prayerfully and did not have 'a change of heart' - it would then be suggested that she did not read it with an open heart.
And I will be frank here as well - you and your parents are sidestepping the question of whether or not you believe that all gay relationships are against what God wants and cause him to be upset.
There seems to be a certain defensiveness around the fact that the belief in the LDS church's teachings caused Mr. IDM to live in a mixed orientation relationship. Why that defensiveness?
It seems to me that Tammy has been y'all's greatest defender. (I don't see any other gay people living gay lives willing to engage on here). And yet when she starts to ask perfectly valid questions, the defensiveness comes out.
I'll be perfectly frank again - read the Bible cover to cover, along with resources that inform you about the context/language in which it was written. Then listen to and read some of the words of ALL the Mormon prophets - past and present, and yes, even the pre-1978 ones. Read articles about groupthink and about how living and breathing and existing in a community that constantly re-affirms your religious beliefs affects a person's own belief system. Read about how telling yourself something over and over again will cause you to believe it. Read about how that great 'knowing' of spirit and of God is a universal experience, well beyond the LDS church.
Read about how a man not ever masturbating will give him the ability to have sex with pretty much anyone. I realize that that is a bit crass but it is physiology - it's how the male body works.
Enough and Tammy,
DeleteI apologize if I came across as trying to silence anyone. I was just saying things inside my perspective, which is what your ( anyone on this blog ) is asking?
I support All gay relationships, aside of my misunderstanding (i am straight) of that lifestyle.
I support All types of relationships.
I would even support my DAD if he where to leave my mom for a man. I may not see eye to eye with him on every detail of his choice making ( who does) but I support his happiness.
I have not read the Book of Mormon cover to cover yet, but I have had enough experiences in my life to KNOW without a doubt, and have a testimony of how much happier I am when I try to abide by the teachings of the LDS church. I do not extend the teachings to those who do not, ( or never will) believe in them as do not expect any faithful member to abide 100% to any doctorine they believe.
Well if a man masterbating diminishes his sex drive, then hopefully for ANY significant other they will obstain as much as possible to show selfless love to their partner. My opinion only.
Jr,
DeleteI apologize if my questions have made any of you feel like you are attacked for your belief. On the contrary, I am hoping to understand, not to change anyone else's mind.
This is really the first time I have expressed my questions around one's belief and sexual orientation. If there were a group of people who were not living gay lives because they were influenced by blue socks, I'd be asking just as many questions about those blue socks. It's the source of the struggle that I cannot identify with here. Not because I think I'm right but because I have not had the exposure or experience.
This couldn't be further from the truth:
"How often you question the church specifically in regards to someone’s personal decisions, comes across often that you are trying to “prove wrong” or put down the church, its leaders, and teachings, but mostly anyone who believes it."
Please share with me where I came across that way and I will explain where I was in my head further and try not to "sound" like that again in the future.
This is closer to the truth:
"I see you feel you are trying to understand why people would follow something you do not understand,"
If I did understand - I wouldn't ask questions. Just because I don't understand does not mean I place negative judgment on it.
As far as your bias to my situation, I can totally see that. I am also absolutely willing to answer any questions you might have about my situation if you were that interested in understanding what you don't understand. I have nothing to hide and I'm not easily offended. I have put in much thought and there is a ton of different feelings and circumstances behind my decisions and I'm an open book.
Mrs. IDM, thank you for your kind words! It really means a lot to me.
DeleteTammy, I appreciate your honest and sincere questions. I understand that we Mormons are quite a peculiar bunch, and our ways must seem very strange from the outside. I also appreciate your having shared a part of your story with us and the joy that you have gained through your relationship with your wife. I will try to answer your questions, from my own perspective, as best I can. Some of the things I say will echo what the IDM's and Arlo have said, and some might differ slightly. I respect your questions, and you for asking them, enough to try to be as honest as possible, even if what I say might ruffle some feathers.
I suppose I should start by making one thing abundantly clear. We Mormon's DO believe in absolute truth. There are things that are inherently correct, and other things that are inherently incorrect. For example, if I have brown hair, it is not up to each person to come to their own personal "truth" about my hair color. If someone says I am blond, they are wrong. If they say I am redheaded, they are also wrong. You get the drift. Likewise, there are inherent truths about God and His plan for us. Those truths have been revealed to us, little by little, since the very beginning of time through prophets, His chosen spokesmen here on the earth. The prophets learn these truths through revelation, or direct communication with God. Not all truth has been revealed all at once, however. It has been revealed a little at a time throughout the ages. Sidenote: it should be remembered that while basic "truth" never changes, Church policy and practice does. The manner in which God chooses to teach His children His truth will also vary, just as people and times vary. I know that this concept of absolute truth is very unpopular in our modern society. We are taught to believe today that there is no such thing as absolute truth, but that all truths are relative (other than scientific truths, which are also subject to change based on new discoveries), thus leaving each person free to discover his or her own personal truth. I fundamentally disagree with this philosophy, for the reasons I have just explained. Hence the reason why we Mormons place so much importance on the words of the prophets; both ancient prophets, whose teachings are recorded in the Scripturs, such as the Bible and the Book of Mormon, and the modern prophets who lead and guide the Church today. In their teachings, we find the truths of God revealed to His children by direct revelation. So to us, the teachings of the prophets are not merely a man's interpretation of God's will, they are candid declarations of God's will given directly to them by Him. There was a marvelous discourse given by one of the Apostles of the Church earlier this year which explains a little more about this process, which I would invite you to read if you want to know more about how doctrine is revealed through to prophets to the Church. You can read it at this URL: http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/the-doctrine-of-christ?lang=eng
continued...
DeleteThis raises a very important question: how are we to know that these men really are (those that live today) or really were (those whose words are recorded in the Scriptures) chosen prophets of God? How are we to know that we can trust them? Many people believe that we Mormons accept the words of our leaders without question, like dumb animals in some cult-like type of blind obedience. That is not true. We are taught from the time we are children to VERIFY the things we are taught for ourselves. Just as there is general revelation, received by the prophets for the entire Church, there is also personal revelation, which each of us is entitled to receive to guide our own personal lives. This personal revelation is also described as being the influence of the Holy Ghost, or the Spirit, in our lives. There is a scripture near the end of the Book of Mormon, which is very often repeated among us, that explains what we are to do to know truth for ourselves:
"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."
The invitation is for every man or woman to humble his or her self, and in sincere prayer ask for his or her own personal confirmation of the truth of all of this, through the Holy Ghost. We are taught to do this about the Book of Mormon, the Bible, the words of the current prophet, or anything else. When we do this, then the words of the prophets are confirmed to us personally, through personal revelation from God. This is why Mormons are so often heard to use the phrase, "I know this is true...". It is not blind obedience, but divine confirmation. Just because I may not particularly like or understand a certain doctrine or teaching doesn't make it any less true, just as a child may not like or understand certain rules that his or her parents impose on them, but with time and experience the child will someday understand and appreciate the wisdom of the parent. Faith is learning to trust in that which we know to be true, even when we are not quite able to wrap our minds around it completely yet.
I know that people in other belief systems also say that they know what they believe to be true, but, as I said, I do believe in absolute truth, which means by necessity that someone is right, and someone is mistaken. I can only do the best I can, trusting in the revelation that I have received. Either the Bible is the word of God, or it is a collection of fairy tales. There is no middle ground. Either the Book of Mormon is also the word of God and all that it claims to be (a record of an ancient people who lived on the American continent), or it is merely the brilliant, though false, invention of Joseph Smith. There is no middle ground. Either Joseph Smith was truly a man called of God, and he saw Him and spoke with Him, or he was a deceiver and a liar. There is no other possibility. And finally, either Jesus of Nazareth truly was the Son of God and the Savior of us all, or He was a madman. There is no middle ground. I have come to know, through the process I described above, that all of these things ARE indeed true. That, of necessity, rules out some other beliefs as being well intentioned, and perhaps based upon truth, but not true in their totality.
okay, last bit...
DeleteI know there are those who will repeat the old accusations that we are brainwashed, or merely convince ourselves of that which we wish were true. The only response I can give to that accusation is to try it for yourself. Try the process I described, and see what comes of it.
So, how does all of this relate to homosexuality and my decision, and that of others, to not pursue same-sex relationships? Basically, I know that this Church is true, and that it is all that it claims to be. I know that the prophets who lead it today are men inspired of God. I don't follow them out of blind faith, but because of my own spiritual confirmations of the things they teach. The doctrine teaches me that families are essential to God’s way plan, and that any sexual relationships outside of marriage between a man and a woman (including sexual relations between any two people, gay or straight, who are not married) are contrary to the commandments of God, and I know through personal revelation that it is true. Tammy, I don’t say this to pass judgment upon you or to condemn you for your life choices, or discount the experiences you have had and the things you have learned. I greatly respect you, and would not wish to condemn anyone. That is not my place. But, as I have said, I do believe that homosexual relationships are not in accordance with God’s plan. That being said, no one is perfect, and we are all in need of forgiveness for one thing or another. What Christ taught was love and understanding, and leaving final judgment to God.
You asked one other question, about the possibility of the doctrine of the Church with regards to homosexuality changing in the future. I feel I have touched on that a little bit, but I have already written quite a bit here. I will answer that question with more detail in a post that I will make on my own blog (trialofmyfaith.blogspot.com) in the next day or two, in which I will talk about that issue, and compare/contrast it with other changes in Church policy in the past, such as the priesthood in 1978 and plural marriage in the 1890’s. So, if that topic interests you, watch for that post in a day or two.
I suppose I have rambled on long enough. I’m getting more “blong-winded” (I love that phrase! Can I use it?) with every comment I make. Sorry for that, but these are issues very dear to my heart, and I want to try to make my beliefs as well understood as possible. I hope that I answered your question, I tried to touch on everything, but it is a very broad topic and we could talk about it for days. I spent two years talking about it as a missionary. I hope that nothing I said has offended you, Tammy, or anyone else. Please know that I offer what I have written with love, and a hope that all of us can see each other clearly and with respect.
Unknown. Thanks for your thorough reply. I don't mind the blong windedness at all. This subject is very dear to me along with being fascinating as well. You've given me a lot to chew on. I appreciate it and I'm not offended at all. I will be on the lookout for your future blog posts. Thanks.
DeleteTammy,
DeleteI feel no need to ask questions about your relationship to understand it more, like I said, I see the value you put into it, and I trust your character. I understand what I was saying sounded much like judgement. I may not agree with everyone, but I do not feel inclined to question it to understand it more. I simply find happiness in your joy within your relationship. I only brought up my bias to demonstrate the similarity in how a questioning (misunderstanding) of a situation, in many cases, seems like judgement.
I only do this, because although you are very kind, and try to be open to new understanding, and have been on the weed and this blog reading so much about a gospel you do not understand, nor have you experience with it.
So I may never understand leaving my family for the true love of another, as you may never understand a gospel you have not read or studied, in the context of how those who believe it, read it, or study it.
Unknown above is right on and very thorough in his explination. I also will agree fully with the "we are not sheep" statement. I myself was raise LDS. I believe the gospel, but I have used my free agency within a wide variety of choices in my life. I have lived without the gospel many times, I have broke many of the standards. I have questioned EVERYTHING about the church, even as I was raised in it. I have learned from this and realized I am happiest when I live the standards of the church. I am not perfect, and do not expect others to be perfect, but I have done much of what unknown has counseled, searched, pondered and prayed. My very educated choice to stay in the LDS church was exactly that, and educated choice. I also am an open book. Ask away ;-)
Again, I wish you all the best Tammy and wife. Happy Holidays
Enough,
I am not defensive about the church or my dads choice in life.
Many of your questions have been answered within the posts and comments of this blog. If you really are interested in widening your understanding about my parents, or their life, or their faith, I suggest you read it all.
If you continue to be agressive you will be ignored. Your understanding or perception of mine and Tammy's convo is like walking in within the 2nd or 3rd scene of a play. I apologize if you were offended in your misunderstanding of Tammy and I's interaction. If you have anymore direct questions for me I would gladly clarify, as long as I see you have real intent to understand or learn. I wish you the best also.
Jr,
DeleteI have always been one who desires to understand what I don't...at least to the fullest extent that I can. That has always contributed to me being a more compassionate and empathetic person to those I meet. Based on your comment above, that is an area where you and I differ. You do not feeling inclined to question to understand more about my situation, but I do about this situation. I'm hungry for knowledge and this area effects (affects? - I hate this word) people who I consider "my people" so that also adds to why I want to understand it better. I had my own struggles so I feel for people going through this. I know the hell.
I may sound like I am trying to understand the gospel but I'm really not. This issue has been highlighted lately as a reconciliation of sexual orientation and faith. The reason there needs to be a reconciliation is because the faith dictates that the sexual orientation (or "the acting on it" is now the position) is wrong. So, some of the tough questions are some of the questions I've asked. I don't know about you, but in making this HUGE life decision, I'd want the person to feel they can ask these questions and explore them without persecution in the asking of such a question. If I am being perceived as attacking by asking it on this blog, what message does that send to a gay LDS person reading this? Are they to not voice that question either?
This specific blog post is a "virtual discussion panel". I thought the question was relevant. The question is specific to faith, how the doctrine and/or revelations are applied in the Mormon faith, and the view of homosexuality from the church. I thought Unknown gave a very detailed explanation on his perception of that question. Arlo also shared his view. Neither said they felt attacked by my questioning. I would really like to hear IDMs perception as well, but if they're not comfortable I understand.
Perhaps this isn't the type of questioning or I am not the target audience that you all are hoping for on this blog. If so, let me know. But, I really was looking to expand my knowledge and understanding in this area and that was one question that I have yet to feel conclusion on and I also felt it might be helpful for others to get other people's perspective.
And though I have not felt any negativity from you or your family - quite the opposite where it concerns my relationship and sexuality - you will never know (because you are straight) the constant barrage of "you are going against God" that gets slung at me and my gay brothers and sisters on a regular basis from many different faiths. It's exhausting to say the least. Just the fact that someone is willing to explore an area that goes against what they feel inside as far as sexual and intimate connection with gender to please god or live up to their doctrine speaks volumes to how my life, my whole person, is viewed by this institution. I understand that's your faith, I respect your right to have it and identify with that faith, I am not outraged that people subscribe to that because that is their choice. But, in turn, I also have the right to try to understand how one gets there.
My view on this subject is completely unique to any other posts I've seen on any of these blogs because it comes from a lesbian, female, non-LDS person with no judgement but with a thirst for understanding. I would like to think I have something to offer along with a lot to learn.
Also, I think it's unrealistic to expect others reading blogs to not have opinions or comments on conversations had here. Enoughenough was giving his/her perspective and seemed to have read me correctly. This is a place for sharing of insight and ideas, right?
Jr - I don't feel that I was being aggressive. It does feel that whenever someone questions something about Mormonism, they get shut down or attacked in some way (both here an on some other blogs).
DeleteSo I realize that your blog is not the place for folks with questions about Mormonism.
I think this is your target audience: young gay LDS men who agree that being in a gay relationship is wrong and therefore want to marry women. And I'm not in that target group. And that is fine.
Tammy and enough,
DeleteI applaud your efforts to understand other points of view! I personally welcome this dialogue and your contributions to it. I sincerely hope that nothing I have said has come across as defensive or intolerant of other points of view. I think that what Tammy and I have in common is that we both want to understand others, and be understood ourselves. I am truly grateful for what you have contributed to this conversation Tammy.
I would like to say a few words in response to your comments, enough, about feeling like nobody can question the Mormons. I make a serious effort to not get defensive about my faith, but it is something that is very hard for us Latter-day Saints sometimes. I can relate to what Tammy said about feeling like she is constantly under attack by people of faith, but I would like to give that a little different application. We Mormons have been under constant attack from other people, both people from other religions and people from the secular world, pretty much since the very beginnings of our Church. Early Mormons were driven from their homes several times, forced to flee one state after another, and subjected to all kinds of violence and abuse until they were finally forced to leave what was then the United States all together and settle in the deserts of the Great Basin. I have had friends of other faiths (many times) hand me pamphlets that they received in THEIR churches about why they should stay away from the Mormons, why the Mormons are really Satan worshippers, why the Mormons and all who listen to them are going to hell, how the Mormons are trying to brainwash you, etc. These attacks coming from other churches are constant, and are almost always full of information that is either completely false, or else taken way out of context. We are used to being singled out and slandered by people from the outside, and are used to being told that we are going to hell for what we believe. Unfortunately, that has led to some members of the Church becoming defensive when questioned or challenged about our beliefs. My goal is not to make us look like some kind of martyrs, but to help you understand why we sometimes get frustrated by being challenged on our beliefs. I think my comments on this page will prove that I make an honest effort to avoid that defensiveness, and I hope you will always feel confident in asking me whatever you wish.
What I have loved about this conversation is that it has been very respectful, unlike so many other similar conversations. Respect has been given and received by all parties, and I think that has contributed to a wonderful atmosphere of opennest and trust. I hope that such an atmosphere will continue, and that no one will feel offended or that their input is not wanted. I hope we will all continue to build each other up, and not tear each other down. Tammy and enough, I personally hope to continue to hear your perspective and questions.
Tammy,
DeleteI feel as though I understand where your coming from. I am not perfect, and do become frustrated (maybe because I have 3 littles at my feet, “mommy, mommy, mommy” ALL THE TIME), and sometimes feel like I have to sit and meditate and pray and breathe for 15min before I start to read or answer posts.
I am not the best communicator in writing. I have a limited vocab lately ( pease, tank uoo, no no,) and my most intellectually stimulating challenges are how to get through the store without a total meltdown, and someone bleeding, or how to get a real conversation with my hubby, Not about kids, work, bills, groceries, laundry, garbage, or my parents blog…….. like a bow-chicka-wowow moment. This is life.
I understand the intent behind your questions. I do understand the hate and condemnation, and the judgment thrown constantly at you and your “people”. I have seen it and I dis-approve. Part of the reason I want to participate on this blog is to help stop the judgments, and lack of understanding that people have toward anyone that may be different or outside the “idea” they have about what is acceptable, and what is not. Your lifestyle in my opinion is completely acceptable. It is not my place to judge, condemn, speak ill of or “save” you. I may not have clarified this before, but the things I disagree with about your life are not at all about your sexuality. I would feel the same if you were my straight friend (and this has happened) who left a family and husband to be with someone else, or was the reason that a family broke up.
Again, I DO NOT KNOW your whole story. I am stating the simplest version, and I do still accept that you are doing what is best for you. Maybe one day I will experience this for myself and have to eat my words, but I feel this way right now, but I do not believe your choices will dictate IF I CAN love you or not. I DO LOVE YOU STILL.
The question about my religion is a catch 22. I do not believe any LDS person is justified in mistreating any of their fellow men (&women) because their doctrine states that a certain choice is wrong in gods eyes.
I do believe the Gospel, as it supports the family nucleus. That does not mean I do not accept “modern families”. Love is Love in my eyes.
I also believe that the LGBTQ community, as wonderful, living, progressing, and legitimate members of society are part of the CHRISTIANS test or trial. If we (Christians) cannot accept, love, have and keep good, healthy relationships with this community, WE FAIL AS CHRISTIANS.
People are allowed, and should embrace that which makes us diverse as humans. We should have compassion to all, and stop assuming and living from fear. We should realize we need only seek understanding.
I do feel persecuted myself by the very people I try to show love and acceptance to. I feel judged by miss-understanding LDS FOLKS who I try to show them they are wrong for judging and being uncompassionate towards things and people they do not understand.
I feel judged by the LGBTQ community who assumes that if I claim to be a Mormon I am ignorant and judgmental.
I have to “prove myself” a true understanding Mormon with a real testimony of the church and Jesus Christ to members when I demonstrate tolerance and acceptance and stand up for equality within the Gay community.
I have to prove I am accepting, compassionate, non-judgmental, and supportive AFTER I state that I am a Mormon to ALL LGBTQ people AND their supporters, which I classify myself as (supporter). Just identifying as LDS I feel ostracized and blown off, and I have been yelled at and backed into walls by some of the very hostile ones, as I try to show them love and acceptance.
I understand where the stigma comes from and this is why I stay to show love and support, against the perception and the sour taste many LGBTQ have for Mormons.
Now that my wonderful dad has decided to come out (anonymously) and tell his and my moms story, I feel even more thrown to the wind in seeing the reception this lifestyle is getting from the LGBTQ community. Reading Josh Weeds blog, I am saddened by the amount of people on BOTH sides that have no problem living and treating people the way they do through fear.
DeleteI have said it before, Tammy your ONE IN A MILLION.
I apologize again that my own imperfections cause contention within your will to accept and understand the LDS religion.
UNKOWN,
maybe you can help me deal with the disappointment of being cast out of both communities I only want to show love and acceptance and widen perspectives within LGBTQ and LDS people. I know you are not out, but do you stand up for acceptance and understanding to LDS people in support of the LGBTQ community and vice versa? How does that go for you?
Hello Everyone - (Mrs. IDM here) - Wow, what great and amazing conversation and communication has been taking place here as I have been "away" for a day and a half with a bunch of extra people in my home. (btw -We love the extra people in our home and we have been having a great time, but we have been unable to keep up on these conversations, let alone finding a time/place to write comments of our own.)
DeleteWell anyway, Mr. IDM is exhausted and went immediately to bed once he got the chance (can you hear his loud snoring traveling all the way from our bedroom to our office? - lol) I, however, am awake and anxious to get in on this conversation.
First, I want to say that my daughter, Jr. IDM is one amazing, elequent, smart, compassionate and lovable gal. I am so proud of you Jr. and grateful that you have been such a wonderful and important participant here. Also, to all of our readers, just know that Jr. is one of the most "common sense" type people I know. She's deep in the realities of life with a family (3 little ones), a husband with crazy hours and a dangerous job, a large home w/huge yard, community work, church work, and great activities with her kids & hubby such as hiking, biking, camping, going regularly to the gym, the park, the beach,craft projects, dance lessons, etc. etc. etc. and hopefully some time to herself occasionally, so I'm truly grateful for her support and the time she puts into participating on this blog. Dad & I love you lots.
Unknown - We are so excited for you to start your own blog. It has been very therapeutic for us. You are an amazing writer and definitely need to share that talent with all who will read your intelligent and thoughtful words. We will definitely be followers and hope that you will continue to follow us here and participate here as well. We have kinda taken a likin to you :)
I know I speak for both of us, Mr. & I, (since we talked a little about your recent comments explaining your belief in the gospel truths), when I say - your explanation was so spot on and represents basically exactly how we feel as well. We have been too busy to get some of those questions answered, and now we don't really have to, as we can just say "ditto" to what UNKNOWN said.
DeleteWe talked a bit before church this morning, and as we discussed the questions raised about our belief in the LDS church's stance on homosexual lifestyles (and before we read your response) Mr. IDM said alot of what you said about truths, about our personal commitment to these truths because of our prayerful research, life experiences, and established testimony that it is true.
He also stressed that we (he, I, no individual on this earth) has the right to judge any other individual for their lifestyle, beliefs, or choices. Although we believe in, and have a personal testimony of, the teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of the LDS church, therefore, we do believe that llving a gay lifesytle is ultimately not a part of God's plan, and, we have found peace and happiness through living our lives as best we can in accordance to that plan, but, WE DO NOT feel "better than" others who do not live as we do, or believe as we do, and we definitely do not have any reason or cause to judge any other individuals - that is not our place, it is for God, and God alone.
And, we want to add that because of all that WE have been through, we are fully aware that we don't know the "whole story" of anyone's lives, and we do not know the extent of anothers' personal relationship with God, etc. Therefore, we are not even interested in judging others for what they do.
We are just trying to do what's best for us and manage our lives; we really don't like to get into conversations that seem to pressure us into statements that might appear as though we are judging others. We just don't want to go there - not because we think our answer will "condemn us", but because would never want to appear to be "condemning others". Botton line..... it's not our place - we are only expected and responsible to show kindness, respect, patience, compassion, and love.
One thing that Mr. IDM said, (before the snoring began), is that he knows that God will meet anyone where ever they are when they turn their hearts to Him.
Enough - I just wanted to take a moment to share with you what Mr. IDM said when I was reading comments to him and I got to your comment of....
Delete"Read about how a man not ever masturbating will give him the ability to have sex with pretty much anyone. I realize that that is a bit crass but it is physiology - it's how the male body works."
.....his immediate response, without hesitation was, "well, it might help a man to be able to have sex with pretty much anyone, but that doesn't mean it affects his ability to "MAKE LOVE" with pretty much anyone - and MAKING LOVE is what we are doing EVERY TIME we get together".
Anyway, thank you for your comments, and we would like to get the link to this physiological information about how the male body works, because it could be the answer for many gay men who desire to develope the ability to have sex with pretty much anyone (ie: women). And it would be helpful for them to have that concrete physiological information to give them hope and a realistic plan as to how they can, through abstinance from masterbation, divert their thoughts and actions away from homosexual acts and fantasies, and toward the ability to have sex with a woman, if that is what they truly desire.
Jr, my "baby" is 22 years old but I remember those days. Oy, exhausting. I'm surprised you have time to read AND reply to this.
DeleteI'm a much better verbal communicator too and I appreciate that, for those of us, that we are given the opportunity to clarify our points on these post. I never, ever mean to offend and I am open to being told when I do. I certainly would like to correct that behavior in the future. It's important for me to understand and also make sure I'm articulating my position as well. My goal is growth, personal growth, not converting or convincing anyone to my view. I like being understood, I think we all strive for that. Even if we are on different paths, there's no reason we can't understand each other.
And even though you didn't ask, I would like to clarify that Joanne was married to a man and they didn't have kids together when I met her. She had older kids from a previous marriage when we got together. Those kids were 15, 18, 20. Only the youngest still lived at home but she lived with her Dad, not with Joanne. So, it wasn't breaking up "a family". Joanne left her husband (who was a douche bag) to be with me. If anything it brought both of our families closer. My son was 7 at the time and the girlfriend I had before Joanne was not very involved in his life. Then Joanne came along and completely ensconced him as her own. We read bedtime stories together, she made him clothes, the attended all school functions with me, everything. It was the first time I had a partner in parenting and my son gained another Mom. He loved it! I love her kids like my own, they introduce me as their "other mom" or "step mom" and because of the happiness their Mom gained once we got together she was able to forge an even closer bond with her kids. So, the situation actually improved for all involved. (Except for the douche bag ex...though he is happier now as well.) I don't want you to think I'm this horrible monster that came along and busted up this amazing family. We actually created an amazing family together. We now have 12 grandkids from our 4 kids and they are the light of our lives!
IDM - thanks for taking time out of family time (or sleep time) to bond and share with your online family! Thanks for answering my questions and being patient with me while my mind expands. I hope to be a better, more understanding, more compassionate person.
Jr.
DeleteYou asked a question about how I deal with the issue of promoting understanding and and tolerance in the LDS world for the LGBT community, and vice versa. Am I understanding your question correctly?
Well, as you noted, I am not "out" in the sense that others know about my sex-sex attraction. That makes it a little difficult for me to express everything I would like to about subjects of same-sex attraction and homosexuality with other Latter-day Saints I know personally. But I feel like if we view the issue even a little bit more broadly we can accomplish what we hope to accomplish, by standing for tolerance and love as it relates to ALL kinds of people. I DO speak up when I hear others making inappropriate or hateful remarks about anyone, be they directed towards people of a particular race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. I point out to them that each of us have our own trials in life, and our own reasons for the way we are and the choices we make. If the conversation is confined to just members of the Church who experience same-sex attraction, I remind them what the prophets have said about attraction itself not being a sin.
I think being an example of showing love for all people does make a huge difference. People will notice if we don't laugh at or repeat derogatory jokes or phrases. Sometimes by not saying anything we are saying a lot. We do have to be careful to not be too overbearing or preachy, as that tends to just turn people off and end the conversation. We can't get indignant over every single flippant comment that is made, but we can be on the watch for appropriate moments to encourage others to show more love and understanding. It is also important to keep in perspective that the problem is not the Church, but rather the culture that has developed among Church members. Even that has a qualifier, because most members of the Church do not see themselves as hateful or intolerant. They don't try to be that way, and would be horrified to hear that they were being percieved that way. If someone says things that are hurtful, it is usually because of ignorance, not malicious intent. Most members of the Church see the issue of same-sex attraction only at a distance, and have no personal experience with or relationship to the issue.
So, that is what I TRY to do in everyday interaction with people, but here on the internet I can be more bold in saying what I want to say. That's a big part of the reason why I decided to start my blog and participate in these kinds of conversations, to make my voice heard and try to help people understand where I'm coming from, both in the LDS world and in the LGBT world. I have very few personal aquaintances who identify as part of the LGBT community, so my interaction with that community is almost exclusively online. In these kinds of forums we have to always be on the watch to not allow our discussions to become contentious. It is easy to sling mud from the protection of internet anonymity, but that accomplishes nothing and merely cheapens the good things we do have to say. Note: I am not accusing ANYONE here of mud-slinging, these are merely my thoughts about this kind of dialogue IN GENERAL.
Anyway, I don't know if this is what you were looking for , Jr, or not. I hope I answered your question. If not, don't hesitate to ask follow-up questions.
enoughenough - Thank you for your comments. Yes, we understand where you are coming from on this and have actually stated at most every turn that this is "just our story", and expressed repeatedly that it has NOT BEEN EASY for us, and even that for years it was HELL. Hopefully we have continued to remind our readers of the very name of our blog.."I Define Me", and have encouraged our gay/ssa readers to manage and mold their own "authentic lives".
ReplyDeleteUltimately, we hope that the honest truths that we are sharing, both the good and the bad, (especially the childhood of fear, anxiety, loneliness, hopelessness, etc.) will promote understanding & tolerance by many, and yes, also, hope for "some" who might find hope through our story.
Anyway, we were just talking this morning about what the subject of our next post should be, and one of our thoughts WAS that it is time to tell about the struggles, the frustration, the broken hearts, and the pain. It appears that NOW "is" a good time to get into those realities as we hear your plea.
Please know that our intention is in no way meant to "promote" any lifestyle, but just to share our amazing story - which we totally recognize as "RARE", therefore, it's why it is interesting and deserves to be told. As for the conversation currently happening here, the fact is that the answers to the questions which have been asked of us are mostly about "the good" (for us...the REALLY GOOD). I'm sure you can imagine how, after all we've been through, and after Mr. IDM's childhood of confusion and desperation, we are excited and motivated to tell about the amazing transformation that has taken place in our marriage, and about the wonderful blessings of peace, contentment, and true love.
Just a note regarding our story being "unfair" to young women. Although you may not see where WE are coming from, or our perspective, but we believe that hopefully, as time marches on, ALL the truths and realities and possibilities of this very complicated and important issue will be brought out of the darkness and into the light, so that ALL INDIVIDUALS (gay/ssa/young women/families/friends/advocates, etc.) will be armed with more information, more truth, more understanding, more patience, more tolerance, more respect, more forgiveness, more faith, more self respect, more options, more self control, more personal power, more confidence, more hope, and more love. We are telling it ALL and the GENUINE TRUTH about it all (as far as "our" story goes - we can't & don't speak for others)in hopes that others will share their stories, ideas, beliefs, and experiences as well, and hopefully, there will eventually be less secrets, less loneliness, less dispare, less cheating, less lying, less selfishness, less desperation, less hurt, less confusion, less young woman (like me) finding out after 10 years of marriage that her husband is gay, and less people thinking that THEY are the experts, and THEY have ALL the answers.
For what it's worth, we HAVE put much thought and prayer and even years of consideration into our decision to tell our story, and, we do sincerely believe that as we continue to share our story, and openly and honestly TELL ALL, it will ultimately be a GOOD THING. We both have great faith in God and love the gospel of Jesus Christ and believe that it is through Him that our lives are so wonderful, and, we believe that it is His will that we share what we know.
Once again, we encourage ANY and ALL individuals who are willing to open up, to share their feelings, beliefs, experiences as well, and we would absolutely love to see a whole spectrum of ideas, options, opinions and understanding. (we just ask that it be done with with respect and kindness) Thanks
There are so many thoughts in my head after reading so much about this lately and I love getting to understand people better. And I have to say that reading and hearing so many different stories makes me truely humble and makes me think that my struggles in life are so little compared to yours. So thank you for putting my life on perspective!
ReplyDeleteI've also got an even stronger witness about how great things the Lord can do in our lives if only we stay near him and listen to the wispering of the spirit.
Life is hard, no matter where we are and sometimes we get things on our plate that just seems too hard, but is our thing to deal with in life. I didn't realise what marrying a man whose father had left him before he was a year old would mean, to our relationship and in all kinds of aspects of life. It's been a hard struggle for both him and me and has affected our children too.
Just a thought to Unknown. Women are not all alike. For some women being desired by their husbands in a physical way is really important and for some women being desired in an emotional and spiritual way is much more important. Personlly I was quite overwelmed by my husbands sexual desires for me early in our marrige, I actually felt like an object more than a person. This has over time, with great sacrifieses on both parts, brought us to where we are today and my husband today says that this is how sex should be, not only physical, but emotional and spiritual too, that it's much more fulfilling this way.
We all have our way to walk and our burdens to bare, but if we submite to the Lord's will we can find great joy and peace even in this life and for sure in the next. And I also think that we are much more alike than we differ, all of us.
ReplyDeleteThanks to everyone for your insights and participation. We are loving the wonderful conversations and communications happening here. It feels like a peaceful spirit of learning with people who have some genuine desires to understand more as we all try to improve our lives.
Hopefully we can keep the questions and answers going for a little while longer....we will have a new post up right after Christmas (possibly before - but don't hold your breath -lol)
I think we should give you guys nicknames. Like...Fred and Wilma. No! Will and Grace!! :-D LOL
ReplyDeleteI think a good future post would be from Jr. How she found out and worked through it. Would be great to get the child of a MOR's story (if she's comfortable).
ReplyDeleteIts in the works ;-)
DeleteLooking forward to reading that myself!
DeleteTammy - re: nicknames for Mr. IDM & I --- How about Barbie & Ken? ;) ~~~ that fits us, I think, because we are tall, Mr. has some beautiful, thick, prematurely silver hair, (which personally, I think is very sexy), I have long blonde hair, and we both have a whole lot of clothes & shoes & sunglasses !! (ps - the big difference, however, is our waistlines - we definitely can't compete with those tiny little perfect abs - lol)
DeleteAlso, re: Jr's post about when she found out about her Dad. She has already got that almost done, and it's awesome. She emailed it to me several weeks ago, and I am also excited for her to finalize it and share it with us. But, I won't pressure her cause I know she's one busy momma :)
DeleteKen and Barbie it is!
DeleteTammy - Actually, my "Ken & Barbie" comments were just being silly. I don't think we REALLY want any nicknames. :) lol
DeleteOn behalf of my parents, the I Define Me's, they will be back to blogging after the holidays. They have family every where, and are enjoying time with friends and family. If you still have questions, then ask away, and they will respond as soon as they can. Thank you all for the support and willingness to share and comment.
ReplyDeleteHappy Holidays
Merry Christmas
Happy Kwanza
Happy Hanukkuh
ETC ETC ETC
Thanks Jr. - Funny thing, shortly after I text (texted ?) you and asked you to let our readers know we couldn't get a chance to comment because of all our house guests, then they decided to spend the night at another family members house tonight as they were going to play some fun board game and didn't want to keep us up. So, although Dad is exhausted and went right to bed, I read some of the latest to him, got his input, and here I sit, typing my little heart out in the "middle of the night". !! lol
DeleteMerry Christmas to yous guys (<--my northern accent coming out).
DeleteThank you so much for this blog, for the conversation, for welcoming me into it, and for being open, raw and vulnerable. It means a lot to me to have the opportunity to participate in this.
Someone mentioned starry eyed girls. I was a very starry eyed girl. My fiancé at the time did tell me he was SSA and that he was attracted to guys or something like that. It meant pretty much squat to me; though in truth it didn't mean that much more to him either. It was something we really didn't understand and me a whole lot less than him. It was when Josh Weed came out, over a decade later that we really started looking, accepting and working with all this.
ReplyDeleteI was the one that initiated all of it, I saw the blog post, I read it and I said, hey look at this, this is you too. I have been very supportive, and though I have had my moments, for the most part this has been a very fun journey. We are closer than we have ever been, and we were pretty close. We really are and have been since the beginning, best friends. It is nice for both of us, for him to be open, at least between us, about all of himself.
So Unknown User, you understand SSA, you have a community you can talk with, you have accounts and more accounts coming of “same-sex attracted marriages" as Danielle Mansfield puts it. (Meaning both are attracted to the same sex.) Your starry eyed girl can study and read and know exactly, or mostly, what she is getting into. My guess is it will be pretty scary telling her. If she is the right one, it will be fine. Look at Danielle. She could read whole books and websites on Ty and his journey. She KNEW what she was getting in to and still did it. Lolly too; she was Josh's confidant from the age of 16. She KNEW exactly what she was getting in to. Well, except for maybe, the telling the whole world part. Meeting her and watching her, I still don’t think she thinks she is ready for that part, though she is doing a REALLY good job. :)
Also I will concur. Communication is key in any relationship! Also, and you obviously are already REALLY good at it, make sure what you say, is what the other person heard. We are learning to do that better. We were having some issues over that one. We are now learning to make sure what we heard was what they said or saying things like, "Why don't you rephrase that because what I heard is not what I think you meant" as smoke is starting to come out my ears. :) LOL Usually rephrased it is then fine. :)
To Arlo and I Define Me, thank you for your input on sex and intimacy. Will and I have very much the same type intimacy, and we have talked about it a bit, but I was still trying to wrap my brain around it. I know it works, really well too, I just didn't understand..how, sorta. The way you both put it, helped me solidity that in my head. Thank you, I really appreciate it.
Thanks,
Azalea
Azalea - (Mrs. IDM here)
DeleteThanks for sharing your great insights and thoughts. We are so happy anytime we hear from another member of "the team", and especially grateful to hear about another healthy, happy, MOR couple enjoying peace, happiness, and true love. Hopefully you will continue to join us and share more about your life, if willing. Welcome :D
I would like to 1st thank God for directing me to find you and then all of you who are in MOR marriages for posting and commenting here. I have been married for 21 years to a gay man though I didn't know it (or did I?) until he came out to me just before our 20th wedding anniversary. Mrs. IDM, we must be twins or maybe you're really writing about my life because you would be blown away by our similar personalities as well our lives in general. I always knew my husband was different from other guys I dated. We were friends before we went out and he never was "hot" for me though every other guy was. My husband never spoke of SSA to me and though he had been brought up in a Christian household and was devoted to his faith in our first years of marriage he drifted away from God...and his family. The only justification or understanding I had in regard to my husbands "lack of lust" for me was that I knew he had been a victim of CSA but even at that I had NO idea to what extent or that it had an impact on his adult life. Although I say he is gay, he say's he isn't...maybe he's bisexual or maybe his SSA is a resulting affect of the CSA which is known to happen. It makes no difference to me but maybe he feels it does. To cut to the chase, when he came out to me so much finally made sense. My husband had spent years acting on his SSA and when I read Mr. IDM's story I saw my husband. I could go on and on and I know this will be the 1st of many posts to come but I simply had to say thank you. This is such a blessing for those of us who are still trying to get past the feelings of anger, hurt, blame...wanting them to pay. My husband is a wonderful man who begged God to help him save his marriage, while holding my hand and asking me not to divorce him. I have forgiven him but the pain (mostly of fear for the future) had recently become too much to bare and I spent days crying. Finally, a few nights ago I sat outside looked up at the stars and began to sob harder than I had in a long time. I asked God to take the pain, to guide me to heal me...and to heal my husband and guide him (rather than give him leprosy :) LOL) and felt immediate relief from what had been crushing depression. I awoke the next morning feeling lighter and stumbled upon The Weed and then your blog. As always "ask and ye shall receive", just what I needed when I needed it most. I should state that I had no intention of divorcing my husband when he came out, but rather a few months later when I found out he had acted out again. Mrs. IDM you know how that feels and its hard to handle. I didn't know what to do but I've always known that I love him, that God chose him for me and I for him. I have always been strong in my faith and now my husband too has turned to God instead of toward the darkness that has for so long sucked him in, drained him, left him empty and lifeless...He has returned to the living. Oh and our children know, our son is in the service and our daughter has 1 year before she leaves home as well. They too have been a testament to unconditional love and acceptance and they both thanked ME for teaching them that. Funny, huh?
ReplyDeleteCali - (Mrs. IDM here) Thank you for sharing your story with us and for your words of appreciation for our blog. It really does mean so much to us to know that in sharing our story we are helping others. (we know we have quite a few readers from our page view numbers, but we don't get a lot of comments - so your response is a beautiful gift. Thx)
ReplyDeleteMost important though, is that I want you to know that you are never alone. Please don't hesitate to email me anytime, especially when you are feeling overwhelmed, hopeless, desperate, or sad. Don't suffer alone - I will listen, I understand, there is hope.
Mr. IDM is also ready and willing to help in any way he can if you or your husband have questions or need a friend - just email anytime.
I have been praying for you and your husband this morning and I feel inspired to remind you that there are angels in heaven (your loved ones who have left this world) who are cheering you on, and on whom you can call on to gather round you for comfort and strength.
I can tell by your comments that you know that it is through our Heavenly Father that you will truly find peace. And please know that you will also find happiness and joy as you and your husband work together to "Define you' (each of you - and your relationship) :)
What has worked and is working for us might not be exactly what will work for you, but I know that God will help you guys figure it all out as you work towards the amazing blessings that your future certainly holds.
I feel strongly that you are wonderful people and an awesome family like yours is definitely gonna be OK :D
Lots of Love and Hope,
from Mr. & Mrs. I Define Me
Wow, thanks for the quick response and the uplifting words. I'm sure that you'll be hearing from me in the future.
DeleteI'm actually "struck" by your words that you were praying for us this morning and you "feel inspired to remind you that there are angels in heaven (your loved ones who have left this world) who are cheering you on". Last summer, actually next month will be 1 year, my nephew (my husbands sister's son) passed away in a motorcycle accident at 21. He was a very strong believer and has since come to his mom in dreams with messages. One a few months ago, that my husband needs to pursue his music (I'm sure she didn't know but it is a fantastic outlet for his SSA and abuse issues) which he did and has been an absolute blessing/miracle/crazy ride, opening doors others never open in a life time! I have felt at times that our departed loved ones have been rooting for us...I know that sounds funny to some but its true. You just reaffirmed that feeling for me.
I KNOW that we are meant to be because I asked God back when I was feeling like I had to divorce my husband. I prayed "God please tell me what to do, I need to hear YOUR voice, I am so mixed up I don't know what you want from me..." That night I had a dream where I entered a brightly lit room, all white, no furniture except for an old 1920's style wooden radio on a simple wood table in the middle of the room. As I walked toward it a booming voice called my name, I KNEW it was GOD! He said "You asked me what you are to do. You are to stay with your husband. You must forgive him and forget the past in order to move forward." (This was clear, loud and demanding) I began to question...I said "but how.." and was cut of with "YOU MUST forgive your husband and forget the past to move forward." Then I immediately awoke. Other's may question my sanity, but I'm a successful business woman who is pretty conservative and I know it was God answering my prayer. I could tell of a bunch of other amazing stories of divine intervention and our family but then this blog would be a book!
I merely want it to be clear that I know my life would have no hope or happiness and my husbands would have possibly ended in suicide if it were not for our Heavenly Father's love. Did he not say love one another as I have loved you? I took vows for better or worse, not for straight or gay or fat or thin.
Knowing that others have gone through this storm and come out to see the rainbow and sunshine is what I was really looking for. God Bless you and your family and once again thank you for reminding everyone what unconditional love and faith really look like.