My story about when I found out my Dad is gay - and, what I've learned about life. By Jr. I Define Me
I will share a little about an unconditional love I have in my life that has DEFINED who I am and what I think unconditional love and acceptance is.
I found out
my dad was gay when I was in my early twenties. I was SHOCKED. Utterly
Shocked. I found out through a person who my dad had been in contact with
within the “out” gay community. This gay man was talking to a few people; one
was a good girl friend of mine for many years, who happened to be living with
me at the time. This man was “entertaining” the group with some very crude
“gay” humor and during his conversation, my mom and dad walked into the place
where this group was hanging out. This gay man proceeded to talk about married men
and the “fun he has with them” and pointed my dad out to the group, outing him
as a gay married man with kids and ALL!! The group “ GASP” he then
proceeded to tell about the dirty underworld my dad had been living to the group,
which included my good friend/roommate.
It took my
friend 6 months to finally tell me, although she constantly asked me questions
about my parents, which puzzled me. Who knows who she told before or after,
but when she told me, she made me promise not to tell my dad that I knew,
because her gay friend ( whom I knew also) made her promise not to tell me when
he realized the guy (my dad) he was outing was someone my friend
recognized. Betrayal amongst friends, masquerades frequently as loyalty.
It was
impossible what I was hearing…. (I was thinking “possible?”)……
No
way…..impossible…
(possible)
This was a
lie, a mistake, it couldn’t be……(very possible)….. Was it?
(Possible?)
Are you
sure it was MY DAD???
Impossible…but
also was in my conscience immediately, very possible.
My dad was
the type who felt a connection with pain and suffering no matter how minuet,
almost to a fault. I remember many times I would get grounded by mom, and I
knew all I had to do was tell Dad how I was sorry and hurt and my dad let me
off, But he knew when I was sincere in my apologies as well
He
also told me often how much he loved me, how wonderful I was, and how beautiful
I was. I feel he had a compassion for “mistakes” or wrong choices I made that
lead me to consequences I would rather not face, like rear ending another car
in high school and telling him it was a hit and run in the parking lot. No
damage was done to the other student’s big truck, but my old car
was smashed in the front. He called my school police officer to file a report,
and in the investigation, (where was I parked? who was parked near me? Where is
the glass in the parking lot from your front headlights?) It became clear to
him and the Officer that I was lying. He picked me up, took me to the school,
and asked me if I was lying. I came clean, and he and my mom talked to me about
how they were disappointed, and grounded me from the car for a week or so, but
it was clear they were not upset about the accident or the car, they were upset
I had lied.
My dad
taught me that forgiveness, when sincerely asked for, was not even thought about,
forgiveness is given as many times as it is humbly asked for. It is something
that not only releases guilt, pain and fear from the offender but it releases
hurt, frustration and discontentment from the forgiver. True forgiveness can
free the soul even against repeat offenders. My dad had forgiven me of so many
things, small and large.
So when I
found out about his biggest secret, I waited only one day to confront him about
it. I asked him to come speak with me away from the rest of the family. I was
sitting there talking with this man I knew loved me, I knew loved his wife, and I
knew loved the gospel, and I could do nothing else but realize he was doing his
best in this world, and he was doing what he felt he was supposed to do.
He may have made mistakes, or made decisions that were detrimental to him and
others (his family and wife), but there was not a hesitation in my complete and
full forgiveness to this wonderful man. This man who had offered up his
DNA to make me, and bring me into this world. This man who I knew as my father
I forgave immediately.
I did
struggle in the months after I found out. I was also a single mother, living on
my own and working hard to try to support my baby and myself. I feel I was
more trying to come to grips with how my mom and dad had stayed together
through all those years than the fact that my father was gay. I myself was
freshly divorced and felt I needed to completely rethink so many perceptions of
love and marriage. In addition, my dad broke a huge stereotype my small amount
of life experience had given me about gay people in general.
Before I
became pregnant and married ( yes, in that order) and before I found out about my
dad, I was right out of high school and I moved out and just had fun the way a
girl going it alone for the first time would. I moved in with one of my
friends, who was also my best friend, a few hours away from my parents. I
still knew nothing of my dad’s orientation. When I lived there, I worked 2 jobs
at 2 different restaurants. I felt as though I had always had “gaydar”, now I
know it was instilled in me by my dad, but also I never felt judgmental or
weirded out by the gay population in my home state the way many of my friends
and family and acquaintances were. I immediately made friends with the gay men
I worked with and became, as they called me, their “faghag” (sorry if that
offends anyone, it was their term of endearment towards me). We went
shopping together, went to bars and clubs together, and I was the “deterrent”
for some of them as they were often hit on by women (they were all so
GOOD LOOKING!). I wondered often how I had become so open minded with
them at such a young age, I was only 18 and I knew much of my family, extended,
and friends, would be puzzled by my friends, why I had them if I wasn’t
gay, and so on.
I never
felt like they were any different than my straight friends either, I felt as
though they were the same as so many young adults, trying to find their way,
and be true to themselves even though not everyone had a down packed idea of
who they were or who they wanted to be. I felt that they knew more about who
they were and who they wanted to be then myself at the time. It has taken
a lot of trial and error for me to come into who I feel I am really.
These gay
men that I had befriended were, at face value, the stereotypical feminine or
flamboyant gay man. I had known few “out” gay people and this was my first
exposure to the out lifestyle. They all had different backgrounds and stories.
They all felt they were born that way, and they all were loving and fun and
wonderful people. I didn’t understand why it was such a big deal to other
people, or why people seemed offended by just the presence of an “out”
gay person. I was troubled by the ridicule and discrimination of my friends and
others.
I felt I
had an open mind, and was more accepting of many things I saw than others
around me struggled to accept and understand.
My dad
challenged that acceptance even for me. When I found out about his sexuality, I
wondered why he married my mom, I wondered why he had children if he knew he
was always this way. I wondered how much my mom knew and if it was a subject
they discussed openly and freely or if it was something that was tiptoed
around.
I could
also see more clearly so many things that had happened throughout my life and
things that had happened between my parents in my past. I was being forced to
change my idea about everything I had grown up in, and everything I knew about
my parents and my family dynamic. It was so freeing and very liberating to
finally make sense of so many things that I previously did not understand, and so many things
that were just part of my life and memories, good and bad, this was like
the missing piece of the puzzle.
I
saw my parents fight so often about things that were “un-important” and I
felt as though money, or bills, or who’s decision it was to go out to eat where, were things
worth FIGHTING over. I see now that there was a HUGE underlying issue that
dictated so much of the dysfunction in our home. There was not any physical
abuse, but there was manipulation, and bickering, and arguments, and for a few
years, it seemed constant.
A nice thing was that they also
seemed to have little or no jealousy between them. My dad would point out
beautiful women and say constantly my mom was more beautiful. They both would
comment about men, good and bad. As far as jealousy, the dynamic between them
was FAR from what I experienced with other couples.
Finding out
about my dad being gay brought doubt and clarity at the same time, questions
and answers. I was looking at someone I loved dearly and I felt like my whole
life was a sham, and I also saw this man hurting and lost in my life when I was
younger, and I was desperately trying to make sense of it all.
I
knew he never questioned the gospel. I felt as though he had a stronger
testimony and relationship with God than 95% of the men and women I knew in the
church. I also knew that most people I knew would condemn this man if they knew
the truth about him or how he felt about his true sexual identity - on both sides. The faithful, church going
LDS / Christian, and the “out and proud” Gay people I knew. I knew both
groups would struggle to accept my dad and how he felt about his sexuality and
spirituality.
I also KNOW
with all my being he LOVED me unconditionally, he loved my mom and our family
more than anything in the world, even more than his sexuality. Understanding THAT was
like being reborn, like walking out of a fog into an identity I could love,
accept, and wrap around myself. It has made me feel more compassion for people
and their personal struggles. It makes me rejoice more with people who define
themselves the way they feel happiest and stand tall in their
self-acceptance. My dad is but one story of self-acceptance and
self-discovery and forging through the darkness and misconceptions, and
defining ones own identity. He taught me not to judge others as I ask they do
not judge me.
As I get
older and I am able to articulate my thoughts more and my feelings about my
childhood, and, combine this with the knowledge of my Dads struggles and my
parents relationship as a whole, I can proudly say…..
I was
raised and nurtured in a home with mixed orientation parents, who believe in
God and believe God is not hurtful or discriminative. They taught me to be
open-minded and also to follow rules. They taught me to make my own decisions, but
with as much knowledge as possible, and also to trust my instincts and trust my
personal relationship with God.
My dad is
gay, I witnessed him question EVERYTHING in his life weather I knew his
reasoning or not. I witnessed some dreadful times, and some of the happiest I can
imagine.
I am so
proud of both of them for telling their story. I am so moved by the honesty and
commitment they have to each other and our family. I want people to understand
the courage it takes for "different" people who have
"different" types of relationships and "different" beliefs,
or cultures, or traditions, or rituals, to stand tall in the face of non-
acceptance, or inequality, or misunderstanding...... but I think EVERYONE has
had that feeling. Is that not why we are all here? To help each other
understand and accept our "differences"?
My mom and
dad are two very amazing people.
My mom and
dad have wonderful spirits.
My mom and
dad have loving hearts and abounding compassion.
My mom and
dad have been through trials many here couldn't imagine.... and probably many here could
imagine.
My mom and
dad have raised an amazing family.
My parents
who are straight and gay have redefined what I think about marriage, redefined
what I think about compassion, redefined what I feel love and acceptance are.
My gay father
and my straight mother have given me a testimony of what WORK in a relationship
really means.
My gay
father has helped raise me with an ability to discern sarcasm and needless
ignorance and replace it with love and understanding and compassion.
I am so proud
of their courage and I am so proud of their relationship, I am proud to be
their daughter.
I LOVE YOU MR & MRS I DEFINE ME...aka MOM and DAD.
What a beautiful tribute to Mr. and Mrs. IDM! Thanks, Jr., for sharing your story with us. It really is inspiring!
ReplyDeleteI want to ask some questions to pick your brains a little (you know I like to do that).
Jr.: When you found out about your dad's homosexuality, how do you feel that impacted you personally, especially spiritually? You mentioned in the post feeling like your life had been a sham, what did you mean by that? Do you think that it would have impacted you MORE, or LESS, if you had found out earlier?
Mr. and Mrs. IDM: First of all, what a strong couple you must be to be able to deal with all the pitfalls that you have dealt with. I do want to ask a couple of questions. Did you plan on ever telling your children? Do they all know now? If you could do it all over again, would you have told them sooner, or later, or not at all? Why or why not?
Thanks!
Unknown,
ReplyDeleteI am more or less an open book. I will answer any question I can, and tell you if I am uncomfortable with anything, but mostly I just might not have a good answer, as some of this I am still working out.
As far as how I said I felt like my life was a sham, I feel like that statement can be related through many different avenues.
*I was very early twenties, and my perception of the gay world was only the “out and proud”, and even that community I had little experience with. I had never even known someone as old as my dad to be gay. Known in the sense of personally met or had firsthand experience with. Maybe, the oldest gay men I knew about were Elton John, George Michael, and Boy George? So it seemed like the older “out “ gay men were fictional characters in my mind. So that part of it was more a huge perception of WHO my dad was, had been shattered, which was a paradigm shift that spun me a bit. Much like maybe being to the age when you find out Santa is not real. It is gasp worthy, and your complete and utter belief in him can almost make you feel like a fool. It takes time to accept and takes sometimes even a grieving period to come to grips with.
*My parents fought frequently throughout MANY of my growing up years. Also my friends parents fought frequently throughout my growing up yrs. My friends parents all around me who fought like my parents ALL divorced eventually. We (my friends and I) knew why their parents where fighting. Usually about serious differences in character, core beliefs, or values, treatment of others, and the very detrimental Abuse, Addiction or Adultery.
With how well my parents “HID” the CORE reason they were fighting, which I understand was mainly them unsure of how to DEFINE their relationship, and obviously the lies and infidelity, that the TRUE reason they were fighting went right over my head. Like I said in the post, some serious fights seemed to stem from just which restaurant we were going to eat at, within my childish perception of course. I expected them to divorce for a number of years, and a few times, I remember even wishing they would, just to stop the fighting. I also could not imagine them divorcing because as much as they fought, or had discontentment, they had a very REAL and almost TANGIBLE LOVE for each other, and especially for us kids, which was absent within the divorce I witnessed in other families.
I can only identify these feelings with terms now that I am older, and able to recognize what my feelings were, and can describe them better.
So part of the “sham” I felt was not having a concrete reason or understanding of the dysfunction. That was also part of the ANSWERS, or piece of the puzzle, that came from finding out my dad was gay.
*Something that played a part within my dealing with, and accepting my dad being gay, was being raised within the LDS faith. I have said before that I felt more open minded than many around me, and being raised in a predominantly LDS place, I felt as though I might not be “grasping” somethings being said, and even taught in church. As I got older, I questioned EVERYTHING about myself (like many do) and my faith was one of those things.
DeleteBefore I get deeper into this I will say I started questioning the church, in reaction to the ignorance and understandably, human bias within the church. I do not feel I understood the Gospel in its fullness until way later in my life. I do not believe my dad had anything to do with my questioning the church or my faith. I also don’t feel my LDS roots or even current faith has dictated how I would treat any of the gay community, even my dad, if he were to decide to live a gay lifestyle. I love and accept all who are respectful and open minded human beings.
Part of my struggles growing up was the run of the mill child and teen tragedies. My friends are being mean, my teachers are being mean, my sibling are being mean, and the all so cliché my parents are being mean. That all turns into my friends don’t really understand me, my teachers don’t understand me, my sibling don’t understand me and oh yes, my parents don’t understand me. I thought all the world was against me as often as anyone else.
When I found out about my dad, I was well within the “ways of the world” myself. I had done a number of things against the standards of the church and beyond. Mostly just personal experiences, but I did “rebel”. Some people might think that a form of rebelling would be not going to church, or drinking alcohol. I had done a myriad of things that go from drinking, to some drugs and illegal behavior. I was reckless, ignorant, and selfish. I learned some hard and very scary lessons. I feel very blessed to have come through some of my choices alive and unscathed, and I thank God every day I learned from them. I have put myself in positions and places with people that the average outcome ends up in the news, with a grieving family left in the wake. I KNOW from REAL experiences and miracles, I have had ANGELS watching over me.
I also had been married and divorced and was living as a single mother, working hard to provide a roof, food, and basic essentials for me and my child. I was very young and I was very independent (always was) and although my parents and others in my family like ELDEST I DEFINE ME helped me more than they might realize, I was doing my best to be self-sufficient.
THEN I found out about my dad.
I was “idol” within my faith and the gospel. I do not feel like I disbelieved it, but I was not active in any sense. I feel that finding out about my dad opened up my eyes to what FAITH and HOPE and CHARITY really are. I feel like finding out my dad was gay, was something that caused me to seek out the very information some of the people who are reading these blogs (gay Mormons ;-) are seeking. For the first time I had a thirst for real knowledge about the church, and the gospel and WHY my dad, BEING GAY, had such a STRONG testimony of the church. I knew he was raised a small town farm boy, I knew his parents and family did NOT teach any kind of church, or doctrine, or anything really. He was the only one in his family to SEEK out the LDS gospel for many yrs.
I coincidentally met a man soon after I found out, about 3 months after, who was a very open minded and understanding person. His best friend had come out to him when he was younger and he (my husband) had had his own very trying times, which had purified his spirit and taught him much. He also had been on an LDS mission solely to find out for himself if it was true, not to convert others, or please his parents, solely for himself. He was much older than the usual 19 when he decided to go on a mission, and had also REASERCHED and learned about the majority of religions here on earth, even ancient ones. He was the man I fell in love with, and together we built up each other’s testimonies through studying, sharing, prayer, and personal inspiration. We have experienced together very real direction, and amazing conformations together, and separately, of the gospel, and our relationship within this world.
DeleteI feel like living the trial my parents went through, and knowing the love they have for their family, and the testimony they have in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, has blessed me to find my own very strong testimony, and love for the savior and the atonement. I feel it has strengthened my ethics and abilities within my own family and my own circle of people. I have seen ANGELS and felt inspiration from my Heavenly Father because of my parents’ faith. I love them for that, and although I am not perfect. I feel I am a better person because of my parents’ struggles and overcoming trials. Seeing them DEFINE themselves how THEY determine is best for THEM, has given me self-confidence, empowerment, motivation, and a real sense of who I am and who I WANT to be.
As for if I feel it would be better to have known earlier?
I cannot say. I feel it happened exactly how it was supposed to for me and I cannot assume anything different.
If you wonder for yourself, I would advise you pray about it if you have children, weather you are married to a woman or not. As I see the world now, I do personally feel kids accept and love more than people give them credit. I do appreciate what Josh Weed says about having relationships that are more authentic since he came out. But, I do not know what that is like. I am straight ;-)
Mom,
DeleteAll that could be a whole chapter in your book, lol. ;-)
Hi Jr. You said you confronted him about it but didn't go into details. Would you be comfortable expanding on that? Were you mad, did you yell, how much did he share, etc. also, how long ago was this?
ReplyDeleteTammy,
DeleteGood question. In preparing to confront him, I was not at all mad, and I viewed the situation in a very realistic view.
The fact that my parents were still together after 20 something yrs was proof enough they were in love. At least they had stayed married, even if the story I had heard were true, they seemed to WANT to be together.
I rehearsed a little in my head what I would say, and it always started with “I know you love mom, and I know you love us kids, but I heard something and as crazy as it sounds, I HAVE TO ASK YOU. “
I was not mad or angry, I was not even hurt really, I feel I was already old enough to comprehend adult situations regardless if it was my parents situation or someone else. I was also open minded enough, to see the situation in its simplest form. It was a life-altering discovery, if it were true, but before I even knew it were true, it made sense within my life. I don’t know if I can make much more sense than that ;-)
My head did wander into all the questions, and “what if’s”
Who all knew?
How did my mom stay?
Was my dad sorry?
What about AIDS?
Was he born gay?
Where they just staying together for the kids and then eventually going to divorce?
Where they swingers?
I decided for the first conversation I would just ask the only question I felt justified in asking, “are you gay?”
For my whole life I felt it was hard to get my dad into a real unsensored genuine conversation, I now feel that is just a “guy” thing, cause it has been the same with most men I know ;-) But once I asked my dad to come outside and talk with me, and I said
“I know you LOVE mom and I know you love us kids…… (it was hard to spit out) but I heard something and I need to talk to you about it.”
He looked puzzled, and I think he had no idea what was coming. ( am I right dad?)
I said, ” I heard from someone that you are gay?.....”
I was actually worried he might be mad or angry with me for even asking such a question. It really was at that time a 70/40% in my mind. 70% being he was not gay etc. I did feel like it chimed within me that it was so possible, only in relation to putting a name to the hurricane we had gone through for so many yrs, and being blind to the force within our home that was causing havoc. Thinking it COULD be from this secret, was very possible in my mind. My dad also had always LOVED Barbara Streisand, West Side Story, Madonna, and Yanni, among other stereotypical “gay” likes. If it were true, he would have been the “manliest” gay guy I had ever known though.
DeleteHe sat there; arms crossed, and proceeded to first ask what I had heard, and whom I heard it from.
At this point, that was enough conformation for me, I was overwhelmed with emotion, and I did start crying.
I said I felt whom, what and where I heard it were irrelevant and he continued to push for the information, very lovingly, and sincerely, he said, he felt he was entitled to know at least WHO I had heard it from. He said there was something said within the family years ago…… I said it was NOT family……
Then my mom came walking out, wondering why I was crying and what we were talking about.
My dad look at my mom and said, “Honey……..our daughter is asking me right now if I am gay…..” I remember his arms were still crossed and she looked at him and shrugged like “well what are you going to say?”
He unfolded his arms, and put his hand on my leg (we were sitting on the tailgate of his truck) and he said, “yes sis, I AM gay.”
I did cry a lot that night, he and my mom cried too.
The conversation that took place after he admitted it to me was THE MOST GENUINE, LOVING, HONEST, HUMBLE, SPIRITUAL, OPEN and AMAZING conversation I have EVER had with my dad. My heart was so full after talking with him I went in (sobbing) to my friend/roommate, and thanked her for telling me.
This night CHANGED who I thought I was and what I thought my life was. I STOPPED blaming outside forces, and influences for the “bad” in my life and I became conscious of my direct role in my life, the life of my baby, and the life of others. I started to take responsibility for myself, my actions, and I opened my heart for the spirit to dwell within me. I feel I could see EVERYTHING around me more clearly.
Pardon my crassness - I have appreciated the openness on here. I'm not clear how your world changed in such a dramatic and awesome way after you father told you that he was gay and that he had had numerous gay affairs. Did he mention that part?
ReplyDeleteI feel like I have missed a step or two or three in how that process worked.
I remember when my Uncle, long married to my aunt with two grown kids and grandkids, started going to gay bars at night. That only stopped after he got gay bashed (terrible). I felt for him and for the era he was raised him that caused him to feel he had marry a woman and be in the closet - but mostly I felt for my aunt. I still love my uncle but his revelation didn't cause me to put him on a pedestal or change my whole perception. I realize that an uncle is very different from a father - but I still feel like I'm missing some steps.
Enough,
DeleteYou are definitely missing many, many, many steps. About 50+ yrs of a man who was struggling with himself about things he could not change. 30+ years of a marriage that started as a love through letters, and evolved through years of trials most marriages do not face nor survive. My lifetime (under thirty yrs) of living day in and day out watching the 2 most important people in my life love and connect, fight and scream, hug and kiss, yell and cry and everything in between.
Some steps were separation, which was too much to bear for all involved.
Some steps were teaching, teaching and more teaching. Teaching love and compassion and understanding for peoples shortcomings. Teaching how to punch a boy in the nose if needed (I did it 3 times). Teaching that sometimes you just have to hold on to yourself and breathe till it’s over. Teaching service and selflessness, and never judge because you do not KNOW where a person may be coming from.
A personal step for me was living with an addict for a time, (my ex), letting go, and forgiving him. Before I found out about my dad being gay, which is something he cannot change, I had already forgiven the one person who had hurt me MORE than anyone on earth ever had, my ex.
I do not know your uncle, so I will not assume what kind of person he is. I might say, respectfully, that I do know others who have done treacherous things to people, and many times, I feel it is because of a hell they may be living within themselves. I know my dads spirit, and he was putting himself through enough hell by the turmoil he had within his sexuality and his love for a family he had already created.
I think it is good that you are here enough.
The question, “I'm not clear how your world changed in such a dramatic and awesome way after you father told you that he was gay and that he had had numerous gay affairs. Did he mention that part?”
Yes, I did know that, if you read the top 2 paragraphs of my post you would know that’s specifically how I found out, from ONE of his misters (mistresses?). LOL
Enough, everybody has the right to react to outside influences however they may. Your reaction to your Uncle is as justified as my reaction to my dad; everyone is different and has different opinions, and situations and life experiences. I did not put my dad on a pedestal; I accepted his personal struggle and shortcomings. I used his situation, and my life experience to learn, grow, and better myself.
I am not perfect, he is not perfect, and my mom is not perfect. However, I see us as progressing and evolving people, capable of self-reflection, and humility.
(Mrs. IDM here) - we are still having a hard time getting enough privacy around here to sit down and reply to some questions that have been asked of us, and although Mr. IDM is off for the holiday, he has still been very busy but we have been working on a new post, and we will definitely get to answering the questions ASAP. I just happen to be "up in the night" (lol - literally) so I will take a few minutes to say a couple of things.
DeleteFirst, Mr. IDM has expressed his desire to share a bunch of thoughts relating to this post by Jr. IDM and he will hopefully get to it in the next couple of days.
Unknown - I have a couple of short answers to some of your questions about telling the kids, and Mr. will have to elaborate more, especially, since this decision is ultimately his choice in the end.
Only our two oldest daughters know, and they found out as Jr. explained, with some additional info to her story is that she asked Eldest IDM (her big sister) if she knew anything about such a thing as Dad being gat (before she asked her dad), she knew nothing about it and so was then "interested" and invested in the answers that Jr. got when she talked to her dad. She talked briefly with her big sis about it and just told her that she really just needed to talk to dad for herself (I think she knew from her own experience that it was important and a good thing to hear it from the horses mouth - so to speak).
I think there's a good chance that Mr. IDM would have never wanted his children to know, and it was ultimately a surprise to him, once they knew, that it turned out so well.
As for the other 2 children (in their early twenties), this is still a work in progress, I think that eventually they absolutely need to be told, but I am leaving it up to my husband to decide when he feels able and that the time is right. There's lots of pros & cons, and we are still just muddling through ~~~
Enough Enough - I can see how odd this all seems. We are continuously telling the "good" and "wonderful" parts of our story because that is where we are at now, and possibly because it's the great and amazing last few years that make the story unique and worthy of sharing. I mean really, who wants to hear a sad, depressing story? ;) don't we all kinda prefer the fairy tale ending? - which is exactly what this is turning out to be - so far anyway (we're not dead yet - lol). It is a little twisted though, how on the blog, we seem to be telling the ending alot more than the whole story, with the ending at the END.
DeleteWe do, however, definitely believe and know that we need to tell the truth about all the 'bad", the heartache, struggles, etc. And Mr. & I are currently working on a post that tells a whole lot about the "dark side". We are finding it is very hard to write though, it's hard to go back there and relive alot of those things that we have forgiven and forgotten and moved on from. But, it is important, and we are committed to "go there". May I just say that as we have been talking about and writing about "the hell", we have cried many tears, and it has been very sobering for Mr. IDM to be reminded of the mistakes he made and the pain his choices caused - not to mention the real and seriousl risks.
I know many are completely blown away as to why I stayed through such infidelity and all. I was just thinking that some readers might get a better "feel" of the turmoul within me personally, as a woman deeply in love with a wonderful man, continuously giving him the benefit of the doubt, and trying to have faith in the things he was always telling me, if I give you a link to a song that somewhat expresses the heartache and pain. I don't share this in any way to get sympathy, I really don't need or want that. But I do hope to help our readers "feel" a little taste of what I lived.
I know it's hard to understand, but I did truly know that he really loved me, and although it seems I must have been a fool to believe him when he said he was "done" with the addictive/cruzin behavior, I certainly wanted to believe him, and often I really didn't believe him, but ultimately I was compelled to stay. I can't explain it except that I could see all the good in him which far outweighed the "bad" (not bad in his attraction, but his addictive behavior related to his attractions).
The first few words of this song say alot, "I know you don't mean to be mean to me" and "you can make me feel like WE BELONG"... (well just go to his address and watch it - if you can).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=Zonrk007ZNo&feature=endscreen
The most beautiful part of listening to / watching this song is in knowing that we have made it past such unbarable pain to an amazing & fabulous happiness, peace and love. It is truly a blessing from God.
I'm writing about "my staying" just because your comments about your aunt and uncle has got me to thinking about some things I wonder about their relationship, which has led me to thinking about ours.
DeleteI also just wanted to say that my reasons for staying were different depending on the day or even the hour or the minute. Sometimes I stayed because of "the kids" (and that reason alone has numerous facets), sometimes I stayed because I was too much of a coward to leave, and sometimes I stayed because I was maybe a little too much of an optomist and had alot of hope for a better tomorrow, but mostly I always ultimately stayed because I was (an am) in love with a wonderful, fun, lovable, humble, genuine, kind, sensitive, and spiritual man.
The bottom line is, that I absolutely believe that God has had a hand in our lives and has literally somehow kept us together. There were times when I was completely done, and I was READY to leave, but because of my relationship with God I always had to pray about most everything. So, whenever I would pray for a confirmation from God that it was "the right thing to do", to leave, I would always get a strong, firm, and distinct feeling that IT WAS NOT GOD'S WILL AND I WAS SOMEHOW STRENGTHED IN A NEW RESOLVE TO STAY AND HANG IN THERE.
I realized this morning, after reading back through my comments from the "middle of the night", that I got off the subject a bit, sharing some things about me, and failed to write the comments I was actually planning to post regarding Jr. and her experience with her Dad (which is what this post is all about). Although I know it's just all connected and it is "our" story (our whole family), I didn't mean to take the conversation away from my wonderful daughter and HER story. :)
DeleteI am so proud of my daughter and her amazing ability to express her feelings and experiences through such open and honest writing. I am grateful that she has had some great friends/family/boyfriend (now husband) to work through this with. She and I have also been very open in our countless conversations about these events and circumstances in her life. It might seem a little odd for a mother and daughter to talk so much about "sex life" type of things as much as we do, but I think we are able to do this because Jr. is such an easy going, loving, and understanding person. She has amazing common sense, and should probably be a counselor or psychiatrist or something as she just has a "way" of understanding people and an intuition about most individuals' true characters. She also has a way of "seeing" through alot of people and determining their "intentions", motivations, and manipulations. She is/was definitely NOT YOUR AVERAGE young woman finding out about her dad being gay, and she didn't respond in what I would assume the "average" person might have.
Also, her dad's amazing spirit, humility, and "intentions" were obviously as clear to her as it was to me when I found out myself. (read the post here called "A Magical Night of Mystery, Misery, Miracles, and Love").
Jr's life has clearly been changed for the better through learning the truth about her dad and our marriage, etc. as I have watched her evolve away from some "unhealthy" behavior, eliminiate toxic people from her life, and establish amazing focus and determination in living a healthy, happy, and continuously progressing (and growing) life. She is a great wife and a wonderful mother - and she is seriously a very special daughter.
Now, about our other daughter, aka Eldest I Define Me, she my not be as "vocal" on here, writing and sharing, etc. But she is also very special, amazing, and a wonderful person as well. She has kept alot of her feelings about all this to herself, and we support her in what ever way she feels best in "dealing" with the information about her dad. If she ever feels compelled to share some of her feelings and experiences, our readers will discover what a loving, compassionate, and smart person she is as well.
I guess, if and when we end up telling our other children, the whole process might play out here as well, I don't know. We will just take that as it comes and continue to seek inspiration and guidance from God - that's just what we do.
just talked with eldest, she will be posting her perspective soon. Its very different than mine. I cant wait to read it!
Deletewonderful! :D (lol - I guess this is not Facebook, I was looking for the "like" button) ;)
DeleteJust a note to our readers, -- I'm sorry I did not realize that I had this blog set up to NOT allow anonymous comments. That was my error in the set up and so I have just changed it so anyone who wishes to comment anonymously may do so. Sorry & Thanks :)
ReplyDeleteThe root of all this seems very unfortunately that living a gay life is against God's will.
ReplyDeleteSo I'm going to add my story to Jr's story of finding out that my dad is gay, as it directly synchronizes with her's. As mom (Mrs. IDM) stated above, Jr called me to see if what she heard was true. When she asked me I was MAD that she would even suggest such a thing and that one of her friends would concoct such a vicious lie. I have also had "out" gay friends that have been the flamboyant and effeminate type, and with them I know that the idea of being with a women would be icky. You know, the stereotypical gay man. My dad (Mr. IDM) is the mostly manly man that I can think of. He grew up on a farm - so he's a REAL cowboy. He hunts and butchers his own meat. He fishes. He can fix anything including all vehicles. He is MARRIED to a women and has kids!! He does not fit into my "mental box" of what a gay man is. For Jr to entertain what her friend had told her made me feel that she was disrespecting our father somehow.
ReplyDeleteAfter she called me she said that she was going to confront him and just ask. I was like "ok you do that - I'll stay home because I don't want dad to think I would believe such a thing". I figured that the conversation wouldn't take long. "Dad are you gay" "What are you kidding me! Of course not!" Done end of conversation. Jr will call me back in less than an hour to say it was all a case of mistaken identity.
I waited and waited - No call. I tried Jr's phone - no answer. I waited some more. I called my parents cell phones - no answer. I started to realize that something was up - no, maybe they just got a laugh out of the whole thing and decided to go to dinner together. I called Jr's phone and parent cell phones again and again and again (Sorry guys that must have been really annoying with the gravity of the conversation that you were having). I finally got my mom to answer, but all she said is that they were talking with Jr. and that they would call me back (I'm not sure that she knew yet that Jr. had called me before going over there).
I really start to entertain the idea that my dad was gay. I still couldn't grasp it. It made no sense to me (sometimes it still doesn't make sense to me, because I think to a degree I still am working on that "mental box" that stereotypes gay men). Yes, some of his music tastes and movie tastes could be "indicators", but just because a male likes certain types of music doesn't make him gay. He's a manly man and my I didn't think my "gaydar" was that bad (side note: I now think that some of my crushes and some men I have dated - were maybe like my dad).
I was physically ill by the time Jr called me back. She wouldn't tell me yes or no, to my one simple question. Is it true? She just kept telling me to talk to dad.
I ended up meeting my parents at a park (I'm sure it was so that the other 2 siblings wouldn't wonder what was up). Dad told me it was true and we talked a for a little bit, unlike Jr, it was not a big realization for me to explain things in my youth. Although over time bits and pieces have fallen into place and I've had AHA! moments. After our 1 conversation, I put it in the back of my mind. I didn't want to think about it - I didn't want to ask questions - other than the obvious ones about AIDS and risky behavior that could put both him and mom in danger - and even that I kept to myself.
I did the math and I was in the teenage "I'm the center of the universe mentality" when dad told mom about him being gay. I moved out of the house within 3 or 4 years. So I think that although I remember my parents arguing and I remember a few times that it got bad and I was sure divorce was imminent (as I think all kids do when their parents argue), I was out of the house and more concerned with my own life during some of the time that Jr talks about in her post.
..continued
I can attest to the change in attitude that my dad has had in the last few years. My dad has always been a bit of a grizzly bear and could be "poked" and riled up fairly easily, in the past few years his whole personality has mellowed. He is more at peace with himself, he does not anger easy (no more walking on egg shells until you know what mood he is in). He and mom genuinely appear more happy and loving toward each other.
ReplyDeleteI am not active in the LDS church and my husband is not a member. So my input (when I actually do post one) is always from my standpoint of my parents happiness. I also love and have a relationship with God, but it is outside of the LDS religion. So for those who question my parents and Jr's intentions on wanting all gay men to live the LDS standard because that is their belief is ridiculous. They have found peace and happiness and a way to reconcile a life that fits - for THEM. They do not judge others for their choice in lifestyle, they may not like all my decisions, but they know how I DEFINE myself and as long as they can genuinely see that I am happy, they support me. I will always support them with whatever direction my dad's same sex attractions has taken in the past and the choices that they choose to make in the future.
I love my dad , he has always been there for me, he is still the same man that I grew up with, the man that took me to a school dance when I wasn't asked (and actually danced with me not just swayed to the music like everyone else did), he didn't change, I've just found out more about who he truly is.
So in the beginning I just filed the information away and almost played it off as if it was just a small aspect of his life, that maybe wasn't my business. Although through this blog I'm learning that it is most defiantly not a "small aspect of his life" - it has been a driving force behind his whole life. I respect him more as I have read (and also have spoken to him more). My heart breaks to know of some of the pain and HELL that they have been through. I have seen how wonderful their relationship has grown into and for that I am thankful.
ELDEST ,
DeleteThat was beautiful. I am crying, I had forgotten dad took you to Prom! Your wonderful p.s.
Love you
Eldest IDM, what a great post. I am so happy that you decided to share this. This blog is definitely turning into a family affair. lol You participation and input is so important and appreciated. Love you
DeleteI want to add one more thing to something I said prior.
DeleteThey have found peace and happiness and a way to reconcile a life that fits - for THEM. They do not judge others for their choice in lifestyle (although it it obvious that they are judged for the choice they make for their own lifestyle).
(Mr. I Define Me here - finally getting a chance to respond to some questions)
ReplyDeleteUnknown, you asked if we ever planned on telling our children - the answer is No, originally I did not EVER plan on telling them because there was too much shame involved. My shame because of the attraction, and shame because of my actions. It was a combination of thinking I'm protecting them and also feeling instinctively to protect myself (like I've done for 50+ years).
I can't really respond as to "if I could do it all over again" because basically I don't believe in exploring hypotheticals. It is what it is. But, although I would have just as soon had none of my children ever find out, as it has turned out, it has ultimately been a good thing for my two oldest children and in some ways it has been good for me as well.
As for telling my other two children, I do believe that that has definitely got to eventually happen, I just can't really say, at this point, how or when.
I know I'm not your child, nor do I assume they will respond this way but waiting longer may hurt their feeling by them perhaps feeling that they weren't trusted like other kids were. That's something I think I would feel, for what it's worth.
Delete"no more walking on egg shells until you know what mood he is in' - so sad. He is the center and all of the family - the wife, the children - do whatever it takes so he is happy. An all too common dysfunction unfortunately. It's good that no one has to walk on eggshells anymore.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it is ridiculous - if I understand correctly, your father is living a straight life because he believes that God would find it wrong for him to live a gaylife. And finally, finally, after many years of suffering on the parts of his wife and his children, he has been able to reconcile it. And so now the family can be happy because he is happy. It's fragile though, is it? Say in 10 years on a business trip he decides, well just one time . . . or whatever. Then his wife will be unhappy and the children unhappy. Now he may never slip or he might. But you all have to wait to see what he decides.
I do understand that everyone is happy now but that happiness is all predicated on how happy he is. Intentionally or unintentionally, he has all of the power.
A commenter up there talked about a pedestal. Yeah, perhaps take him off of the pedestal and have your happiness not be based on whether or not he is happy.
All of this could have been avoided if society then and somewhat now, wasn't so homophobic. And if churches didn't teach that living a gay life is wrong. It's a shame.
Anon 9:09
DeleteI have more friends then I can count.
One was molested by her best friends dad.
One was molested by her stepdad.
One watched his parents each cheat, and then blame one another through 10 yrs of divorce court, dragging the kids along with them.
One was left by both parents with her grandparents to be raised.
One has been chasing her biological father around for years to finally accept he is misery, and she will not be his company.
Some had a very "normal" childhood.
Some are LDS
Some are not religious
ALL ARE HUMAN.
Widen your gaze to the treachery of humanity and maybe we together can accept more, and judge what is shameful less. Acceptance will help turn up the chins of the shamed and wronged.
Our Families story could go in numerous directions and we are all eyes wide open to this. I feel better prepared to roll with the punches from this experience, and I havent even been punched as hard as some of my friends. I might someday get punched harder. I still have peace, and hope others can as well.
Yes, much of your observations are true. Although much of our earlier years were full of love and fun, etc. there was basically ALOT of dysfunction for sure. Currently our family and relationships are amazing and wonderful. We are so blessed to have made it through the hell to such a healthy place for us. All I can say is that after knowing such great dysfunction personally and for so long, I believe I know when the dysfunction is genuinely healed and healthy relationships, feelings, interactions, and expectations, etc. abound.
DeleteMy husband and his addiction (not the attraction - but the addiction related to the attraction) definitely had great power over the whole family back then, but currently I don't feel any of that. I feel completely free from those old unseen, but truly felt, pressures, and now I feel a completely opposite force of genuine love, complete honesty & fidelity, calm, peace, real happiness (not counterfeit or fleeting), and no pressures or fears of what's next.
Certainly there is always a chance of problems in the future, but I believe, because of all that we have been through, we are less likely to experience dysfunction in the future than maybe even the average marriage/family. You know, kinda like - "been there, done that - not goin there again". I totally understand how from your perspective you believe "it's fragile", but where I sit (right in the middle of it) I don't feel that it's fragile at all - our relationship/marriage/family feels absolutely strong, healthy, and very special. To tell you the truth, I am often amazed at how completely trust has been restored, and how beautiful forgiveness is. And, for what it's worth, I promise that I no longer feel that my happiness is based on whether or not hubby is happy. anyway, haven't you heard...."if Mommy ain't happy - aint' nobody happy". Just teasing, really, we (us and our kids) have each definitely learned to establish our own happiness and define ourselves in our own individual ways.
As for "wishing" that society was different, and that churches were different, etc. The fact is that..... IT IS WHAT IT IS, and we are grateful to have found our way through it all to a wonderful place of happiness and love. That's all we can do and we'll continue to press on.
I agree that many, many families have terrible dysfunction in them. I would never dispute that.
DeleteBut when it all stems from a decision that living a gay life is morally wrong, then that is rather different. Not only does it then present all of the problems you've mentioned but it also sends the message that living a gay life is so inherently wrong that it is worth 30 years of hell for everyone in a family. What message does that send to young gay people? It sends the message that living a gay life is so wrong that one should go through 30 years of hell in order to possibly come out with some peace at the end.
And that is my whole point - I am trying to get what is judged as shameful be judged much less as shameful and much less as wrong.
The story of eventually finding love amongst the chaos could be seen as beautiful and triumphant certainly. But what it really is is a belief so strong that living a gay life is wrong that everything will be sacrificed for as long as it takes to not live that gay life.
And the addiction part? That's fairly classic, is it not? When a gay man believes living as a gay man is sinful, the next natural step is to have down low, addictive sex. You have to look at the genuine root cause of that.
So much earlier misery because of a belief that living a gay life is wrong. What a shame.
I see your point, Anon 1:23
DeleteIf you are interested in this family and the story we have to tell, I suggest reading the FULL BLOG, all posts and all comments. I have a few sincere questions for you lower down. I would like to be able to understand were your coming from better.
You are right in what you are saying.
Apart from the fact that my dad was not raised in a faith, he knew he wanted his own biological children, and he inherently knew he didn’t want to live the gay lifestyle, even when my mom told him she would support him if it would make him happy. He says the thought of having to live the gay lifestyle, and the pressure from the gay friends he had, was what make him hopeless and helpless.
As far as the sad hell we lived due to a lack of understanding and acceptance, I do agree. This is why we share our story
We believe everyone has the right to choose what makes them happiest. If the gay lifestyle is best for you, then we celebrate your happiness. The church is what helped my dad reconcile his inner feelings AFTER a lifetime of hell.
We are also fighting for the thing that is judged as shameful (out gay lifestyle) to be viewed as less shameful, and less wrong. It may have helped my dad and our family avoid some of the turmoil and hell.
What our family went through is a story that needs to be told to WAKE UP the judgmental to how HARD and SERIOUSE this decision is without honesty, guidance, and humility.
There are disclaimers ALL throughout this blog that we DO NOT assume this is a path for anyone. We wish the 20ish yrs of hell to be avoided for ALL who can avoid it.
I agree with most of what your saying.
The fact is, some gay people DO NOT WANT to live the gay lifestyle weather you want to admit or not, and it can be from a number of reasons. Church is one of them, family is one of them, and some just make the decision themselves. The pressures and misunderstanding and intolerance needs to STOP. LOVE, ACCEPTANCE, and UNDERSTANDING need to be the support system for anyone struggling with how to define themselves.
DeleteWho are you to say someone’s spiritual convictions cannot dictate how they live their life, as long as they feel confident in the options they do have and are aware and honest with any path they choose?
I do not feel it’s my place to tell anyone considering the out gay lifestyle as an option that it is wrong for them or “a shame”.
I PRAY anyone trying to define their life are only doing so on their own terms.
NOT because they feel pressure from family, friends or church.
I pray they see the HELL we lived, and understand how to take a path that is not as reckless and hard. It should include honesty and awareness and conviction.
I have a few real questions for you Anon, to help me see better your point of view.
Would you rather have had my dad come out and live the out lifestyle from the beginning? Remember he was not raised in the church. You can read the whole blog, to help you with your answer. I do not wish you to make assumptions without the knowledge of my dad.
Or maybe he should have been more aware of his sexuality and more honest with my mom?
Do you believe people can inherently have a core spirituality that can be more powerful than their sexuality?
Do you believe all who have SSA must come out and live the out gay lifestyle?
I personally believe only in humanity living through love and acceptance. I believe people be open and honest. I believe understanding needs to replace ignorance.
I believe people should have the ability to DEFINE themselves without fear, or pressure.
I am greatful my dad made the decision he did, I am sorry for the hell and problems that came with it, but a number of wonderful people would not be on this earth (including me) if he had not felt so strongly about things other than his sexuality.
Let's just accepts others and let them live their lives. There is a lot of finger pointing from both sides of the aisle. You don't have to attack their story, or tear their story down to feel secure in your own world view. Just be content in your own choices and let them tell about their choices.
Delete(Same Anonymous 3:28) The above comment was in response to Anon 1:23
DeleteHi! For those of you who didn't follow the conversation on the IDM's last post, I am a young Mormon man who also has same-sex attraction, yet am committed to living a life within the context of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and I do hope to marry someday (for more of my thoughts on that read the comments on the I Define Me's last post).
DeleteI just want to say that all that any of us is really seeking is a fulfilling and happy life. Some people feel that the most important consideration in that is their sexuality, that in order to have the fulfilling life they seek it is necessary to live a gay lifestyle. For others, like the IDM's, myself, and others, the most important consideration is our faith. Well, I suppose I should not put words in anyone else's mouths, but for me that is the case.
I know that this may be hard to understand for those who aren't religious, but I believe with all my heart in this Church. Regardless of how anyone else feels about it, I know that the prophets that lead the Church teach us the will of God. There is no doubt of that in my mind. Thus, the commandments and laws of God are what they are, regardless of how any of us feels about it. I can talk until I'm blue in the face about how unfair I think it is that jumping out of an airplane without a parachute will result in death, but that won't change a thing. It is what it is. So, with regards to SSA I have a choice to make: I can either choose to live the gospel of Jesus Christ and abstain from sexual relations outside of a legal heterosexual marriage, or I can decide that to follow another path. All are free to make that choice. But this gospel is a part of me. A much bigger part of me than my sexuality. My faith is much more important to me than my attractions, and choosing to abandon that faith would cause a part of me to die, and I believe that I would live a much LESS fulfilling life than I would being single for the rest of my life, if that turns out to be necessary. I realize that this is not a perfect comparison, but I don't hear anyone railing against the Catholic Church for requiring their priesthood to abstain from sexual relations. To them, the most important consideration is their dedication to their faith and the calling they feel they have. Now, the comparison breaks down in that I do hope to marry a woman someday (I repeat, if anyone wants to comment on that please read the conversation about that issue in the comments section of the IDM's last post first), but nevertheless the point is demonstrated.
I think we can all agree that there needs to be more understanding and acceptance of ALL people, regardless of their inclinations and choices. I do not condemn others for choosing to follow their sexuality rather than a faith, they are free to do so. Though I may not personally agree with their choice, I sincerely hope that they find the fulfillment and happiness they seek. The IDM's, myself, and others are sharing our stories beause we are all seeking more understanding and respect about this in both camps. We all have been hurt by the sometimes judgemental and hurtful attitudes that we sometimes see both within the membership of the Church and in society at large, and would like to see more understanding and tolerance from them. We all also hope for acceptance and respect from the LGBT community, even if they don't agree with our choices. THAT is the purpose for my participation in this conversation, to hear and share perspectives, and to promote tolerance from BOTH ends of the spectrum.
Unknown. I am glad that you are researching and trying to find out the best path for you. I'm assuming you are in your early twenties and I'm glad you are taking your time in discovering your path. I'm in my 40's now and would NEVER take the advice of my 20 year old self. There is so much about life I didn't know.
DeleteKeep searching and keeping taking it slow.
Thanks for responding, Jr. I have the whole blog and all the comments and just did so again right now.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I readily acknowledge that many, many people don't want to live a gay life. And I look closely and examine the reasons why - is it religion, is it family, etc. What it always is, without exception, is because someone or a group of people or a society along the way has somehow sent along the message that living a gay life = wrong. People are not born thinking being gay is wrong. I understand that in your father's case, it wasn't the church. He has written that he had no role models of gay men living gay lives growing up - he saw no one like him. So he felt like a freak. He felt like living a gay life = wrong. That became a an ingrained belief for him. And the LDS church was agreeing with this belief so yes, I imagine it would feel like the LDS church was saving him, again, because the LDS Church shared the belief that had been ingrained in him already. Kind of 'phew I don't have to live a gay life." Why was it already ingrained? Because he saw no one like him, because he felt like a freak when other boys were interested in girls, etc.
The reasons gay people don't want to live gay lives is never because they think, ''hey, I'm gay but I won't live a gay life because I have no problem or issue with being gay.'' There is always an issue somewhere caused by something - be it a church telling them it is wrong, be it society, be it no role models, etc.
This next point is a bit trickier - people's connections to God are not telling them that living a gay life is wrong, other people's interpretations of God are telling them that. That may seem obvious or moot but it is not. It is the essential point - the interpretation of God by other people is telling that that living a gay life is wrong. And when someone really believes something, they may also feel that God is 'confirming' it. But make no mistake - it is someone else's interpretation of what God is saying that is causing them to not live a gay life.
And yes, the pressure, misunderstanding and intolerance absolutely needs to stop. the intolerance that says God thinks living a gay life is wrong - that is also a very clear misunderstanding of the Bible but that is a longer story. If you really want it all to stop and I believe you do, wouldn't it make more sense to work within your religion to stop the message that living a gay life is wrong? only when gay people have to no longer deal with such messages from religion and from society as a whole will the true concept of choice come into play. Until then, there is not a choice really - rather it is the exact pressure you speak of - from churches, from society, etc., that causes gay people to believe that they even have to make a choice to survive. I think the truly brave ones are those who live a gay life despite the near constant pressures around them that living a gay live is wrong, etc. And if there were to be complete honesty - if your father believes that living a gay life is wrong, is he really thinking just in his case? Or is it wrong for everyone? Because I haven't read on here anywhere where he says God believes it is only wrong for him to live a gay life and it is just fine for others to do so.
It's like y'all are trying to deal with a problem by not dealing with the root but rather saying, 'well, the problem has to stay so let's work within the problem.'' How about, instead of that, tear out the root of the problem? How much more authentic would that be?
I am not tearing down his story - although I'm starting to figure out that any genuine questioning gets labeled as such.
Anon - In reading your comments it is evident that you are confident that you have it all figured out. But, it is clear to me that you do not understand me, my life, my family, or my beliefs, and, as you assume that you do understand the complexities of my life, you discredit yourself and expose yourself as someone who is not here to learn or attempt to understand but just as a know-it-all who has only one thing in mind and that is to stir controversy, debate my beliefs against yours, and use my blog as a place to promote your agenda.
DeleteI find it interesting that as you claim I am following "man's interpretations of God", you are also "just a man" insisting that "your" interpretations of God are right, true, and correct. Actually, no matter what you say, I testify that I have my own personal relationship with Jesus Christ (as I have had since I was just a boy), but, if I was just following "men", I definitely prefer to follow the men I understand and believe to be living prophets through the history of time, than to follow the interpretations of some unknown man from cyberspace such as yourself.
BTW -Your use of the words "always" and "never" confirms my suspicion that you are actually NOT as well informed as you seem to profess to be, therefore, I prefer not to engage in further conversation with you and your judgemental & arrogant attitude.
Please know that the main focus of this blog is to promote peaceful communications, encourage compassion, tolerance, and understanding, and share our unique and interesting story to those who are genuinely interested. My family and I are firm and confident in our beliefs and have no desire to entertain others' anonymous assumptions about our beliefs, feelings, experiences, and lives. Therefore, if you are threatened by, or disagree with, the message, you should probably NOT read the blog. There are other blogs who tolerate and even encourage debate, but that is contrary to the atmosphere we desire to maintain here.
Mr - I can see how you can take what Anon is saying personally because it is questioning what you hold dear and what you feel has gotten you to this good place. But isn't that the point? Here is an opportunity to share the nitty gritty of how you got here instead without feeling like you need to defend yourself. I'm going to assume (and correct me if I'm wrong) that at some point in time you had these same questions (and others out there may have or will as well) and you had thoughts and experiences that helped you come to your current conclusions. Please share those! We'd like to hear them!
DeleteI'm hoping that some of these topics will be answered in future posts since this is really just the beginning of the story. If that's true, let your posters know that. There is so much more I would like to know but I'm willing to wait and hear the stories, everything does not need to be told right now. Also, in exposing yourself like this you need to be prepared for some people pushing buttons and try not to be thin skinned in this area (I KNOW that's easier said than done.)
I believe you had your reasons for doing what you did.
I believe your wife had reasons for doing what she did.
I believe you are both happy now.
I believe you want to share the whole story - not just the pretty bits.
This whole topic has 2 huge themes. Gayness and LDS faith. Both of those topics will be questioned thoroughly when opened up like this. That's to be expected. Not everyone will start off in a warm and fuzzy place. Expect that too. If that isn't what you guys wanted during this experience, perhaps you should define that further for your readers and posters and monitor the posts so that only the posts you feel are relevant to your message are exposed.
Know, though, that a lot of the uncomfortable posts from just one voice usually means there are many out there that feel the same way. So, the way you reply and what you are willing to share can make a huge impact....either way.
I'm the first to admit that I'm ignorant to your belief (and have been learning more about it outside of these blogs to try to be less ignorant) so that is where a lot of MY questions will be. Not because I am trying to prove anyone wrong, but because I am trying to understand. I KNOW how to be gay! ;-)
Show me where in your first two posts there is a genuine question?
ReplyDeleteAnon... this is a topic that interests me very much.
ReplyDeleteI think it can be very difficult to understand what Mormonism means to the active members. It is a belief system, but so much more than that. It is a culture and a tradition. It is actually an entire way of life.
If someone feels entirely gay and also entirely LDS. They have a bit of a conundrum and must make some difficult choices for them. On investigating, I find that they feel equally torn between the two lifestyles.
Is it wrong for someone to choose Mormonism and all that comes with that over choosing their homosexuality?
I don't think so. Asking around, it is easy to see that many feel equally inauthentic if they choose a homosexual lifestyle and forsake their religious heritage.
Does it matter if their beliefs are accurate or not?
I don't think so. It matters only if they are trying to figure out who they want to be in accordance with their own belief system.
Is it someone "better" or "braver" or "more authentic" for making their own choice about how they want to live ONLY if they are willing to give up everything that has been a part of their life and live a openly gay life?
All of us are choosing everything from something that has influenced our lives. None of us are raised in a bubble.
My brother is obsessed with sports. Of course, his two sons are influenced by that.
I choose reading and music. Of course, my children are influenced by that.
We homeschool and because of this, I find many things repulsive about public education. My children hear me rant off statistics and quotes from founding fathers about the evils of public education. Of course, they also think that public education should not exist at all in our country. I would be amazed if any of them sent their own children to public school..... even though the older two went to public school for 8 and 6 years respectively.
Believing that people who choose to hold fast to their traditional and cultural and religious belief system are brainwashed, is crazy. It is being completely arrogant by refusing to acknowledge all the ways that we ALL are shaped by our upbringing.
N.O. - That is so true that we are impacted by our upbringing. I haven't yet really thought of Mormonism as a culture (and I'm not sure why - it's so obvious). For one to leave that would mean leaving an entire way of life. That's a paradigm shift in itself - but what an unfortunate reason to leave it!
DeleteAnd religious doctrine is not the only place where gay people are made to feel less than. Fathers who are major jocks and don't want to have sissy sons feel this way (regardless of religion). Parents and family who are embarrassed by their gay relatives make gay people feel this way. So, religion isn't the only place that puts homosexuality at the bottom of the scale.
But, that's really the core issue right there. No matter which direction we look at it, I think the problem is that homosexuality is looked down on. Even the parents who are accepting of their child fear for them because they know others look down on it. So, the issue is the view of homosexuality. And it's so big and comes from so many different angles, how (and where) do we even begin to try to change minds an perceptions?
My name is Michael. I am a gay man living in a committed relationship with another gay man. I have been reading and was not going to comment, but after much in-house discussion, felt that I could not stay silent.
ReplyDeleteAnon – I try and be a mentor to those who have been ostricized and “thrown out” due to their sexual orientation. And I agree with you that the world preceptions of the gay lifestyle is unfair and that if we could change the attitudes of others that this world would be a better place for all.
With that being said I have to also say SHAME ON YOU! The I Define Me’s are just telling their story and it surely is a sad one that is proving to have found happier times. The choices that they have made for their family have surely not been easy, nor would it be easy to share on this blog and open themselves up to people such as yourself who attack them, in hopes that others my find inspiration or solice in their story.
We as a gay comminuity want and crave acceptance for who we choose to be, we fight for it everyday. They have not asked you to live a lifestyle that they are. So who are you to try and tell them to live the lifesyle that you do. We do not know them, just as the majority of society does not know or understand us and our reasonings to love how we wish to love.
It would be wonderful if we lived in a society that did not believe that our lifestyle is against God, but we don’t. And attacking and berating the I Define Me’s to try and further your personal agenda is so sad. If you don’t like their story then don’t read it. If you wish to discuss topics, then do it in a respectful manner. Attacking them and their beliefs only makes all of us in the gay community look bad.
Judgement on someone’s personal choices on how to love is wrong, it should matter if you are gay, straight, poly or mixed orientation. No one has the right to judge another except for God at the pearly gates. I personally believe that God with look down upon me and say that I lived the life I was given and he is proud. I also believe that is what the IDM’s also strive for – we just do it in a different way.
Jr & Eldest – maybe if this next generation that is coming up in the world would be as accepting and loving as you – this world may be a better place. You both have shown strength and such beautiful acceptance for a situation that I am sure has not been easy.
Michael, (Mr. IDM here) - It is clear from your writing that you have a warm heart. I would just like to say that I love you and your partner, and I know that God loves you as well. I have several gay friends (from 20 yrs ago)some of which are living in committed gay relationships, I love and support them in their life choices and their quest for happiness, and I know that they love amd support me and my ideals to mold my sexuality to conform with my spiritual beliefs. You are such an awesome man for speaking up from the sidelines and blessing our blog with your insights. It was a wonderful thing to read your comments this morning and feel of your support. I wish the best for you and your life and I will appreciate your continued participation here if you are so inclined. Thank you my friend
DeleteThank you Michael, for the support, and the compliment. I do believe the new generations have alot more acceptance and understanding. Although there are also the indignant, and presumptuous judgementals in there too, but I feel the majority are more open minded, compassionate, and eager to learn about and accept others differences.
DeleteLike my dad said, we love you and your partner. I also hope you continue to comment, and speak your opinion here. It feels good to embrace others differnces and feel an embrace back. I've always been a hugger not a fighter like my mom ;-)
“People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they're not on your road doesn't mean they've gotten lost.” Dhali Lama
Michael,
DeleteAs a non LDS lesbian I understand where you are coming from about acceptance all around. But, your post contradicts yourself. We do not know Anon's situation or what would motivate him/her to post on this blog. I see a lot of very valid questions posed by Anon that are very tough questions. I do not see them as attacking questions and that's perhaps because LDS is not my faith. I'm able to view it from an objective outsider and have those same questions myself.
Judging someone and telling them they shouldn't be judging or defining them as attacking I no better than what you are accusing them of.
I never once suggested that Mr. IdM live a gay life - not once.
ReplyDeleteI never said that anyone was brainwashed.
And indeed, no one has a right to judge who and what God accepts. Spirituality and living a gay life are not mutually exclusive so to suggest that one has to choose one or the other is interesting.
Michael, do the IDM's think that you will make it into the Celestial Kingdom, the highest level of heaven? If they said no, Michael, you will not because you are living a gay life and God thinks that is wrong, how accepted would you feel?
If someone gives up everything because they believe that God says living a gay life is evil, is that brave was the question to me. That would depend if I consider those who think that God thinks living a gay life is evil and against God are brave.
I don't know, is it brave?
Michael here again. I’m really going to have to set-up a profile if I decided to continue participating.
DeleteAnon: I am not LDS nor do I personally believe in levels of heaven. So to answer your question if Mr. IDM was to tell me I wouldn’t be in an upper level of heaven, then it would not bother me. My core beliefs are not directly or indirectly affected by Mr. IDM’s beliefs. So I guess the true question would be – do you believe that there are levels of heaven – if so do you believe that you will not go there because of your sexuality. Because that should be all that matters – who cares what others believe – what matters is what you believe.
Anon,
DeleteMichael makes a good point.
Do you believe the LDS doctrine?
I feel maybe you were raised in it or know someone who believs and you feel judged or condemned by them?
If this is the case, I am sorry. I am sorry you have those negative feelings, or people in your life. I am completly assuming here, which is not somthing I ever try to do, in fact I try to stay as far away from assumptions as possible. I am not perfect though, and in this case I feel inspired to apologize to you if I have ever made you feel that I judge you or your lifestyle because of my personal beliefs.
I do take issue with your attitude and critizism of my dads choices. You may just feel you are voiceing your opinion, but if that where true you would not feel the need to defend yourself. You also seem to have tunnel vision and keep stating that my father chose to marry a woman because he belived god sees it as evil or that he was taught it was evil, both completely untrue. If he really felt that way, or the church felt that way, he would have left the church or been kicked out once he went to repent of the down low same sex addiction he did live for part of his life. On the contrary, he was instead embraced and supported, and forgiven once he made the decision to abstain, because that was what HE wanted.
There are many cultures and religions that I dont fully understand, or agree with, but I am not threatened by them or their beliefs. I just hope for the same respect and graciousness I feel they deserve. I do not feel the need to go seek them out and debate their beleifs, I do ask questions as respectfully as I can for a better understanding of who they are and what they believe, specifically to keep from saying offensive things.
I wish the best for you Anon, and again I apologize if I have offended you.
Nope, I've never been LDS nor do I believe the doctrine, nor do I feel condemned by it. Also, just to be clear, I'm not gay.
DeleteBut correct me if I am wrong(and I'm willing to be!) do Mormons believe that their doctrine is only for them - that for non-Mormons there isn't the same 3 heaven idea? I imagine if that were the case that there wouldn't be Mormon missonaries going around the world sharing the Mormon faith. Now this i honestly don't know and so I'm asking - is it a Mormon belief that Mormons can baptize non-believers after death so that they can be in heaven with their families? I don't feel the need to defend myself and I'm not actually. I am responding to misinterpretations in what I've written just as you do. So whatI'm doing is trying to clear up what you have misunderstood - from what i've read and as I've said before, your father felt that his being gay made him a freak because he saw no one like him. He internalized that- I realize that those were not the exact words written - but that's what he did - his self-hatred became a part of him and that totally makes sense - no one else was like him and he was probably terrified by being gay and having those feelings. Sorry, I realize I am repeating here but I realize I am not being clear which is unfair of me.
Okay, so your dad grew up incredibly isolated and disturbed by his being gay. Totally understandable. He didn't want this. The LDS church feels the same way that he does about being gay - the church doesn't want it either. That is a perfect fit. I completely get and understand that the LDS church welcomed with with love and acceptance and help - as long as he didn't choose to live a gay life. That the church had the power to forgive and absolve him must have been an incredibly powerful experience. And quite sincerely, a relief. Because every time he may have slipped, the church was there to forgive him and that is an amazingly powerful thing.
I'm not in any way threatened by his beliefs - any more than you are threatened by mine. So it's not a matter of that at all.
So to continue in honesty, I would like to know why he decided that to live a gay life was a bad thing. As I said, no one is born with the belief that living a gay life is bad.
Do I respect the fact that in Saudi Arabia, gay men have often been killed because they are gay? No and if a gay Saudi man who chose to live a straight life had a blog I'd ask him too. Also in Iran, gay men are sometimes hanged - if an Iranian gay man living a straight life had a blog about it, I'd ask him too.
I completely understand that the LDS Church has never stoned anyone for anything and I am not suggessting or equating this situation to that one. What I am saying is that the LDS church says that living a gay life is a sin. And very possibly because of that and other factors, your dad lived the down low life. And that message - the message that says that if you are gay, you must not live a gay life or you will not get into the (highest level of) heaven is the root of the problem. The root is not that people don't understand why your dad is living a straight life - I understand why and I understand that after many years he and your mother have found peace. I don't discount that in any way.
part 2 to come!
sorry, long winded!
DeleteWhat I am saying is that until that root is dealt with - all of the blogs about all of the happy mixed relationship marriages isn't going to change the fact that LGBTQ Mormon youth are being told that to live a gay life will keep them out of their church and out of their church's (highest level of) heaven. It's great that there is more openness but it is not enough.
To be less than polite here, I don't care what choices your father makes. I care that the message to gay Mormon youth remains the same. I mean it's a softer message now but it hasn't changed. So that is what my motivation is.
Everyone on earth - myself included obviously, wants to feel that our story is unique. And perhaps the fact that your dad is now at peace after more than 30 years is somewhat unique. But the internalized self-hatred and acting out and the down lowing and the feeling terrible and begging for forgiveness - that is not unique.
So what do you want us to do for you to stop repeating your agenda on a blog supportive of the church?
DeleteCan you look at other sides of the story without feeling threatened? I don't have an agenda - any more than this blog has the agenda to help young gay Mormon men know it is okay to marry women.
DeleteI AM asking questions, just as Tammy is (13 years, for example) and yes, maybe tough questions. I am trying to understand the whole story.
If you can't handle my questions/comments without feeling threatened or that it is taking away the opportunity for young gay Mormon men to feel good about marrying women, then you can delete my comments I guess.
but were you ever to go out into the real world with this story - you would realize that I am quite tame really.
Anon, my reply is under your first genuine question.
DeleteAnon - I just replied to your 7:43 question below, and discovered these new comments by you here, so I'll also respond a little to your thoughts here as well. I know, it's complicated - but I'm doin my best to keep up here. :) (everyone knows this :) is a smile, right?)
Delete(Mr. & Mrs. IDM here together)
Anon, we don't mean to be disrespectful or rude, but we thinkwe need to help you see that the bottom line here is this...
WE, the IDM's are not here to "look at the other side". That is not what we wish our blog to be about. We are here to tell our story to those who are interested, and to honestly and openly answer respectful and thoughtful questions, but we are in no way here to debate issues. Certainly there can be exchanges of ideas, information, feelings, experiences, etc. But we are not interested in entertaining others' agendas and yes, we will call commenters out anytime we do feel disrespected, attacked, or ridiculed. We feel that our precious time can be completely wasted when we end up feeling threatened and, taken away from the task at hand, as we find ourselves caught up in trying to defend our choices and beliefs.
Believe me, there really is a way to ask questions respectfully, even when you are frustrated, and there is also a way to express yourself when you don't agree without being disrespectful, judgemental and rude.
Let me just share a quick story.
One day my adolescent son came home all upset because his guy friends were being rude and disrespectful to him (bullying). He was NEVER going to hang out with them again. But, I knew that they actually had some pretty great friendships going, and I hated to see all the good end because of some immature young boys that just needed some "direction". So I told my son that he didn't need to quit hanging out with them, that I felt he could "teach them how to treat him". I instructed him to let them know immediately everytime they crossed the line and offended him. I told him to just say "that was rude!" or "hey - you're being a jerk", everytime someone crossed the line because "he" was the only one who knew EXACTLY when the line was crossed, and he just needed to cut them some slack for being immature and not knowing EXACTLY where his lines were. It must have worked quite nicely because these guys had many great times of awesome friendships and fun, and a whole lot of ramen noodles and tuna sandwiches at my house for years.
So, since this is OUR blog, we will let you know when you cross our line.
If you are still interested in hanging our here, great! - break out the koolaid.
So anon, please know that you have crossed the line in claiming that we have an agenda through this blog "to help young gay Mormon men know it is okay to marry women". This is so far from the truth and you have obviously missed the "disclaimer" in the beginning (and many comments throughout) where we state that we do not promote our way of life, as a matter of fact, we admit that it's been hell much of the time until recently. We do, however, hope that our story will educate some (parents, friends, leaders,etc. of LGBT youth), provide insights, promote thoughtful choices, encourage faith in God, eliminate hate and distrust, dispell shame and embarassment in hopes that other little boys will not have to live a secret with no one to talk to for 20+ years, bring the dark side of the "low-down" into the light and show it for what it truly is, share miracles experienced by the hand of God, testify of the amazing power of repentance and forgiveness through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, share experiences of devine interventions, and hopefull promote understanding, tolerance, and even acceptance from people like you, to encourage more love and less hate, more patience, more open mindedness to OUR life choices and beliefs, more kindness and respect. This list goes on...... but we are definitely NOT here to encourage Mormon men or any men/boys/girls, etc. to choose our path as their own. Hence the name of our blog - I DEFINE ME (we hope others will find strength to define themselves in their OWN, AUTHENTIC TO THEM, ways)
DeleteWe acknowledge, that there definitely are those, who hold dear our same and/or similar beliefs, who personally desire and hope to marry a woman, and who believe that God can help them in their efforts to mold their lives. Hopefully, our story is more of a "buyer beware" than a "come one, come all" shout, but, the truth is, that those who have similar desires for their life as Mr. IDM has always had for his life, deserve the information that our life's path, both the good and the bad, can provide.
So, please know, that we have only touched the tip of the iceberg so to speak in telling about our story. There is MUCH still to come, and we hope we can concentrate more on telling it and less on defending it.
(Mr. IDM here) - Since my daughter, Jr. IDM, posted her amazing story of discovery related to when she found out about my sexual orientation, I have been thoughtfully pondering some of my own thoughts that I would like to add, and share some of my own stories related to this experience as well.
ReplyDeleteI remember 25 years ago, coming home from a hunting trip in the middle of the day. My two little girls (aka Eldest IDM & Jr. IDM) were standing on the front porch anxiously waiting for my return. As I drove up, they were very visable and their excitement in seeing me was absolutely heart warming. As I jumped out of the truck and ran to the porch to greet them they swarmed me with love, hugs, and kisses. I was overcome by their unconditional love for me and my overwhelming love for them. (I say "unconditional" because in my travels home from hunting I had stopped just hours before arriving to engage in an anonymous sexual encounter with another man. Then, as I continued on towards home my thoughts and feelings were on a rampage of guilt and dispair as I had tried to avoid exploitations of my gay thoughts and those related actions.) So, as I was swarmed by my children, my thoughts were overcome by what if's. What if...these sweet little girls knew what their father had just done? ... Would they still swarm me with their loves, hugs, and kisses? ...
My heart was broken as I was so committed to love them and provide for them, yet contrary to this commitment I had just indulged in my appetite of the flesh, and was struggling to figure out how to stop this behavior and focus my attentions on my family. I wondered, "can the love of these two little girls be my strength and motivation to finally put a stop to my unhealthy behavior?"
As the years have gone on, I have continued to fight and experience great heartache as I've struggled to change my behavior and honor my deepest desires to stay committed to my wife and children. After adding two more children to those two girls, quadrupling the love in our family, the motivation I had hoped would come to help me was failing. I wasn't sure where or how the help would come, but somehow I knew it would.
Now, as I ponder the story of how this sweet little girl,(now grown,) Jr. IDM, confronted me about her discovery of the secret I had kept for so long, was I gay???? Another heartwrenching moment, but it has become a very DEFINING moment in my life, a paradigm shift. It is a moment frozen in time for me as it was FINALLY the motivation I had hoped for and believed would come.
This amazing daughter of mine had gone through so much, in such a short period of time, as a divorced single mother, and the new discovery of her dad's secret life. Yet, here was that same sweet spirit who STILL showered me with love, hugs, and kisses as I cried and honestly answered her question, "yes sis - I am gay". Cries and hugs and more cries and more hugs along with my wonderful wife as she had arrived on the scene in the middle of it all. This unconditional love from my dear wife and this dear child (JR.IDM) was the key ingredient to motivate me to stop (cold turkey), from years of acting out, to NEVER acting out again.
Currently, it has been more than 7 years, since that night on the tailgate of my truck, and I HAVE NEVER acted out since, and, although there have been many struggles, these past 7 years have been the best years of my entire life as I have worked to RE-DEFINE ME.
With all my love to my compassionate & understanding wife and my courageous & brave daughter, Jr. I Define Me, and to all my beautiful and special children. I HAVE found peace and love unconditional from you. God has truly blessed me and heard my prayers.
Love Dad aka - Mr. I Define Me
I want to add, I feel I have more compassion and understanding for my dad in his situation BECAUSE of the many of the reasons "some" condemn him.
DeleteLike how he was raised without any gay role models to show him he was not a freak. Or that he felt God would save him from his internal struggles, although for yrs he hoped the gay would go away, only to come to the conclusion it will never go away.
I see others take these facts about my dad and his life, and especially his "misunderstanding" of his own life and feelings, and condemn his choices and reasons.
To me that is as effective or helpful as taking a little child, putting a jug of milk and a box of cereal out and saying, eat. Then getting mad at the kid for dumping the cereal and the milk out on the counter and eating it with a fork.
How can we condemn those who are confused wthin themselves, and worse, berate them for doing the best they knew how?
Maybe one day that kid even decides he does not want cereal, he wants oatmeal.
Just because you handed him cereal doesnt mean he has to eat it, but now he has to figure out how to make oatmeal!
Why cant we see that even as adults we all should help others seek out which breakfast they want, help them learn how to prepare whatever it is they want or direct them to someone who might know how, if you do not specialize in crapes. Without telling them they are crazy, or stupid, or wrong, or brainwashed, or disappointing for not having your cereal.
That ended up being longer and kinda more interesting then I anticipated....LOL
To further the cereal analogy (which I had to read over a few times to make sure I understood it correctly!)People are killing themselves because they are cereal eaters and have been told that being a cereal eater is wrong (by a prophet and 12 apostles and by lots of others in the oatmeal club). And if they aren't actuallly killing themselves, then often their cereal and the cereal eaters are thrown out on their ears by the oatmeal club. Mr. IDM has been able to stay in the oatmeal club whilst occasionally eating cereal, so I think the ongoing condemnation of cereal eaters is much stronger than any condemnation against an oatmeal eater/sometime cereal eater.
DeleteI completely understand that you love your father and that you want everyone to have incredible compassion for him and to see his story as unique and amazing. I get that, it makes sense.
Sadly, his story of sex on the down low (I must have misunderstood - I thought Mrs. IDM said that it stopped 20 years ago when he came out to her - but he noted it was 7 years - after 2 more kids, etc. So, doing the math, Mrs. IDM had to live with this for 13 more years after she found out)is not unique.
He also said it was the conversation with his daughter that finally put a stop to the whole thing. Not seeing the years of suffering he'd caused his wife, none of that - just that conversation with his daughter.
Honesty is an awesome thing - and I can only imagine the feeling of freedom you have in being able to share this finally. But in that honesty, there may be a person or two who says, 'hey, that must have been pretty hard for your wife.'' And that's okay.
As for using the feeling he was a freak against him - not at all. It must have been awful to feel that way and to internalize all of that self-hatred.
I have never once said that I condemn his choices or his reasoning. Never once.
What baffles me in a way is this seeming frantic need to defend him at all costs - heck, he even put in a comment intended to make it seem like my agenda is to comdemn him.
I think you have such high levels of defensiveness(which in many ways makes sense) that any comment that is not noting at some point how brave and honest Mr. IDM is, gets slammed down.
And an honest question: how can you truly love Michael and his partner and accept them if you believe that they are not going to get into the highest level of heaven because, at least in part, of their living gay lives?
There is a story from the Bible to answer your last question, Anon 2:02. One day Jesus was teaching in the temple and the leaders of the people brought to Him and threw at His feet a sobbing woman. The leaders of the people were interested in trying to turn the people against Jesus at all costs, so they asked Him a question they thought sure to cause Him to say something they could use against Him. The woman they had brought Him had been caught committing adultery. We don't know any more about her story than that. Perhaps her husband was abusive, perhaps her husband had left her years ago, perhaps she had merely fallen out of love with him, we don't really know. But the point was that she had committed a sin which was, under their law, reason for the death penalty. (Note: I'm paraphrasing this story, for the original read John 8:1-11 in the New Testament). The men asked Jesus, "This woman was caught committing adultery, the law states that we should stone her, but what do you say we should do?" At first Jesus ignored them, but then He calmly stated, "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone." The men all began to feel guilty, realizing that they were not perfect and therefore not worthy to pass a final judgement on the woman. They all left, and eventually Jesus was left alone with the woman. He asked her, "Where are the men that accused you? Has no one condemned you?" To which she replied, "No, Lord." Then the merciful reply from the Savior, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way and sin no more."
DeleteJesus did not dismiss her actions. He did not tell her that it was okay that she had sinned or that she was excused from guilt, she had sinned, and had to own up to it. But when He saw her, He didn't just see her sins. He saw her potential as a daughter of God. He showed her love and compassion. He defended her from those who sought to condemn her. He recognized that final judgement only comes from God. But His admonition to her was firm. While loving and defending her, He told her that she must "sin no more". Because of His love for her He wanted her to be spared the eternal consequences of her actions if she was not repentant.
Now, our doctrine is very clear that homosexual behavior is a violation of God's law. That is our belief, that is what the revelations that we have received tell us. But it is not up to us to CONDEMN anyone. Christ the Lord loves all people, regardless of their sins. He wants the best for them. We as Christians have the obligation to treat all people with love and compassion, reserving final judgement and condemnation for God and God alone. So, my beliefs tell me that homosexual behavior is a sin, which if not repented of will have eternal consequences. I will not apologize for my belief, but neither will I ask anyone else to apologize for their belief. I do not condemn anyone, recognizing that there are things in my life which, if not repented of, will also have eternal consequences. We are all guilty of sin, and none of us is free from its consequences. Thus we cannot see people only for their sins or for the choices they have made, because they are so much more than that. We all need to repent of something, and that is why we must love all people, because were it not for the grace of Jesus Christ we would all be equally damned.
That is how we can and should love all people, regardless of their life choices. I have interacted here online with people who do live gay lifestyles, and although I do not personally feel that their choices are right, I love them, respect them, and value the perspective they provide to the conversation. I do not insist that they agree with me, and hope that they will not insist that I agree with them. We can agree to disagree, while at the same time promoting understanding and respect. God will judge all of us according to the desires of our hearts, He knows all of His children perfectly, and that is good enough for me.
"How can Mr. IDM truly love Michael and his partner and accept them if you believe that they are not going to get into the highest level of heaven?"
DeleteSame way that he can love me. If you missed it - I am his daughter - I am not active in the LDS religion - my husband is not a member. I do not live a life in accordance with the LDS standards. My father still loves me. His love is unconditional and is not based upon where he believes my place will be in heaven.
As for the cereal anolgy. The oatmeal eaters are not telling the cereal eaters to kill themselves. Suicide is a very sad issue, but it is not the fault of the oatmeal eaters just because they eat oatmeal and don't promote eating cereal.
I live within the promently LDS dominate community. I also have many tattoos that can be seen by all (which is not a serious infraction with the church - but still is judged at times). I am not going to kill myself because they do not agree with my choices and if I did, would it be the churches fault for discouraging tattoos?
I can tell you that I personally do not defend my dad for having affairs on my mother. I doesn't matter if it was a man or a women that he was with - he cheated and it was wrong. It hurts me that he did that. But my mother has found the strength to forgive him and so do I.
People make mistakes everyday - some more serious than others. I know he feels horrible about the pain he caused and his infidelities, should I then turn my back on him and not love and support him? Of course not, so yes I will stand up for him and all of my family.
Of course I would expect you to stand up for your family! I would hope you would! And really great that you have forgiven him because not forgiving him could be so damaging to you. It sounds like you, your mother and your sister are incredibly forgiving types -he is very very lucky. I hope he knows that -I haven't really heard that yet - I've heard a lot of defensiveness on his part when really, he should be down on his knees for the respect, love and forgiveness his family has given him and will continue to give him, should he slip again.
DeleteNow the oatmeal eaters may not be directly telling the cereal eaters to kill themselves, as in, they are not saying, 'cereal eaters, kill yourselves!" Were that it were that obvious, it would be much easier to stop. Rather, some of the oatmeal eaters are telling their follower oatmeal eaters that eating cereal is wrong and against God and will never ever be tolerated. So, you know, either be an oatmeal eater or don't eat at all, is the message. Now if you've been told your whole life that you'd better be an oatmeal eater, you can have cereal in the room but don't eat it and if you do you can't go to the oatmeal church that is all you have ever known. Maybe, just maybe, some cereal eaters are going to kill themselves.
And again, great that your family loves you unconditionally - that is such a gift. Do they believe that you are going to be together in heaven?
and actually, it does matter that it was with men. And you are very lucky that you were not born HIV positive. Seriously, that was Russian roulette and you very luckily, came out okay. Phew.
Whoa....did I read that right? He came out to you 20 years ago but continued the down lowing and other activities for another 13 years? I was under the impression this all changed the night he came clean. Did I miss something?
DeleteSo Anon let me get this straight....
DeleteMr. IDM was personally responsible for how you have been treated by members of his religion? Or maybe Mr. IDM has direct pull with the powers that dictate the religion doctorine? Or is it that you are so miserable in your own skin that you feel that you must search out anyone who in the LDS relgion and also has ties to the gay community and harp and badger them?
Also make up your mind - first you seem outraged that his family defends him. Then when his daughter says she doesn't defend his actions but does support him, you then not only agree that she should support him, but you become snide and cavalier toward her. Probably because you can't attack her on her religious beliefs as she does not believe as her family.
You seem to know everything - I guess you have lived thier lives and you KNOW that Mr. IDM hasn't been on his knees for the respect, love & forgiveness his family has given him.
Lastly - get over yourself. You sound like a 2 year old throwing a tantrum. You keep on and keep on with the look at me I'm so right attitude. You are so concerned with you getting the last word, that you over-simplify a very complex social/religious debate. A debate that apperently stems from the IDM's - as it seems you feel that they are the cause of your turmoil and strife. If there was a way to put you in the corner for a time-out, I think that many of the other followers here that are genuinly here to hear the IDM's story, would most definatly send you there.
I'm not LDS actually and haven't ever been.
DeleteI agree with Tammy - I'd like to know the part of the story where Mrs. IDM knew Mr. IDM was gay and yet his affairs continued for another 13 years.
I'm not in turmoil or strife about this - I'm stating my opinion and have some questions.
And no, I don't know if Mr. IDM has been on his knees. Maybe he has. Most men who have lived a down-low life are, every time they slip - they beg their wives to stay.
It's not a debate, I'm expressing my opinion and trying to understand.
Anon 7:43 - (Mrs. IDM here) Thank you for the respectful way in which you asked your question. I am completely willing and even anxious to respond and share in any way that I can in an effort to promote understanding, tolerance, and love. However, if the truths and realities of my/our story do not increase your acceptance, but instead increase your frustration - you might want to give up on this particular blog because we are just here to tell our story, answer thoughtful & respectful questions, and keep a "peaceful" atmosphere to the best of our ability (which, we are realizing, IS quite a challenge on a blog), and, although we are completely willing to "discuss" our religious beliefs and how God & religion has played a major role in our lives, we are not here to "debate". It'll be tricky, but I think we are all intelligent enough here to attempt such an exchange. I'm not being snarky, I genuinely have faith that we can DEFINE this blog to be exactly what we want it to be. :)
DeleteI guess it's a good thing we don't drink cause we are bright eyed and bushy tailed this morning (unlike a few people I know - you know who you are - lol)and ready to blogggg ~~~ (well, I'll be here in my office all day, Mr. will probably be in his big chair w/his ipad, but hopefully he'll take a break from football now and then to join us. ;)
So ok people, LET'S DO THIS :D
*scoots up to table...hot chocolate in hand...glued to the screen*. ;-D
DeleteThe vast majority of your commenting is FAR from asking questions. I have read them a few times and these are the few genuine questions I can find.
Delete" I'd like to know the part of the story where Mrs. IDM knew Mr. IDM was gay and yet his affairs continued for another 13 years."
A:They would honestly answer this.
"if your father believes that living a gay life is wrong, is he really thinking just in his case? Or is it wrong for everyone?"
A:He would honestly answer this although "unknown" already has. So I feel you either are not reading everything, or you don’t feel his answer is sufficient enough.
"How about, instead of that, tear out the root of the problem? How much more authentic would that be?"
A: I dont know who you think my dad is, but he does not have any type of control over the presiding figures in the church, nor would he presume to question them. That has to do with faith.
“Can you look at other sides of the story without feeling threatened?”
A: I am not threatened by your beliefs. But you keep throwing presumptions and YOUR interpretation of our story and beleifs, thus we respond. The way you contradict yourself constantly though it is hard to tell what “other side” your promoting.
Also the other side of WHAT story? My families story is just what it is, there is no “OTHER side”.
If your “other side” is asking us to question our beliefs…….that has happened and we have all announced where our belief are held. (either in or out of the LDS church.) We have Concluded our soul searching, and no “anonymous” commenter or bishop or priest or rabbi will shake us of that either, even my sister, who does not identify within the LDS religion disagrees with your agenda and attitude.
Here is the only contradiction I feel I need to point out because it says everything about you.
“To be less than polite here, I don't care what choices your father makes. I care that the message to gay Mormon youth remains the same. I mean it's a softer message now but it hasn't changed. So that is what my motivation is.”
IT THAT NOT YOU STATING AN AGENDA? And very honestly claiming you don’t care what this blog itself is about?
“I'm not in turmoil or strife about this - I'm stating my opinion and have some questions.”
“It's not a debate; I'm expressing my opinion and trying to understand.”
These clearly contradicts the previous statement you made.
This is where I wrap up my interaction with you, anon. If you disguise yourself within any more anonymous posts, that do not contradict, or seem genuine, you may get some answers.
As far as you being "tame" I agree, I do not live in a bubble, and I have been face to face with much worse, even within family. This does not mean I invite them into my house and allow the indignance to continue. This is my parents blog "house" and your continued interaction is based on what my parents define, and so far you are not living up to that level of respect, if you dont like it then leave.
I do not feel it is inappropriate to teach people how to treat you. Tammy, and anyone else, just because someone feels entitled to act a certian way, or question or comment a certain way, deos not subject my parents to accept that behavior.
You Tammy are respectful, and misunderstood sometimes but your eagerness to bring clairity to your comments without alterior motives, or contradictions, or disrespect, cause a good dialog.
So far this anonymous's way of commenting are with presumptions, projections, disrespect, agendas, and a lack of clarity that he makes no apologies for.
I feel I have been one who has tried to understand you the most Anon, and it proves to just cause you to continue to contradict yourself.
I was accused earlier of blaming Mr. IDM for something or other, So by saying I don't care, I was meaning that I don't blame him for whatver I was being accused of blaming him for.
DeleteI very much care what this blog is about.
And as for an agenda -- no, I'm just stating what my opinion is. And I'm trying to understand the opinions on here - hence my questions.
I may not word it in a way that you think is the best, I understand that.
And if I am wrong in what i say - if gay married to women men do not feel shame after having gay affairs and beg for forgiveness,for example, then I am willing to be shown that I am wrong. If young gay boys don't internalize self-hatred - i would be thrilled to be wrong about that.
I come to this blog to try and learn how Mr. IDM's story is different from the thousands of other gay men married to women who have lived a secretive life.
You can keep attacking me and accusing me of contradicting myself and having a grand agenda. Or you can try and listen as I am trying to do, despite your attacking me and a few other commenters feeling the need to as well. Attacking can often very much look like trying to shut someone down, to shut down someone whose opinions don't' match yours
This is a blog that shows young gay men how they can still marry women. There's gonna be questions.
And you can even delete my comments but I'm still pulling up a seat beside Tammy to learn how those 13 years went down.
"I come to this blog to try and learn how Mr. IDM's story is different from the thousands of other gay men married to women who have lived a secretive life"
DeleteAnd that is the key - we know that there are thousands of other gay men married to women who have lived/and are living a secretive life. It is quite prevalent, but it is not talked about, so those in the situation have no where to turn for help in their particular situation.
Not saying that staying in a mixed orientation is the way for everyone as each person must ultimately DEFINE how they want to live their lives. But for those who YEARN to stay in a mixed orientation marriage or enter into one due to what their beliefs are (religious, social, moral or whatever), they have a place to maybe see the pros & yes the CONS of such a life.
So although our story is not a "unique" one. We are opening ourselves up, for those who want to know more, about how a mixed orientation family can be. And also if future posts, more will be discussed about the hardships and trials, that can also be very prevalent within such a family structure.
You are right about
Delete"if gay married to women men do not feel shame after having gay affairs and beg for forgiveness,for example"
My dad has said even in this comment thread he felt shame after having gay affairs. If he had decided at 20 to get into a committed relationship with a man, and then had low down hetro or homo affairs, I imagine the same shame would be there, and forgivness needed be asked.
Your right about this as well.
"If young gay boys don't internalize self-hatred -"
He has also explained this and you have even paraphrased it back, so you will not be proven wrong. If there had been internet when he was young, and he found a blog or 2 about the same thing he was dealing with, maybe the self hatred wouldnt have lasted so long. Sad really. How wonderful that more young LGBTQ youth have so many more tools to find others like them, whichever life they want to lead. Gay, straight, or circus preformer.
I do appreciate your posts seem more genuine and respectful. I apologize for any misunderstanding on my part. I am not perfect either at interpreting text.
(Mrs, IDM here) Thanks for the great idea Tammy - Now I've had my oatmeal, and I've got my hot choc. here as well. YUMMMM Stephen's hot cocoa - so good! (just a little commercial for Stephen because we know him personally and he's a super great guy)
DeleteSo, HAPPY NEW YEAR YA'ALL! (I don't really have a southern accent, but "ya'all" sounds endearing and easy and that's what I'm goin for this morning, on the first day of the NEW YEAR, as I have great hope and excitement for a wonderful 2013 :D )
First I want to say that I feel really bad that somehow one of the very most important details of our story has been somehow left out or missed or something, because it totally seems to me that I have mentioned several times and made it clear, that the infidelity and "hell" continued even after Mr. IDM came out to me shortly after our 10 year anniversary. I am sorry for the misunderstanding, and please know that we did not, in any way, wish to leave out this fact, or to mislead our readers. It might have been on "The Weed" where this fact was made clear, but them Tammy, I know you have followed most of my writing there as well, and so since you didn't get that, I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. Maybe it's because I've been working on a book for years, and that's sorta how the whole thing starts out - I guess I don't know who I've told what! lol So ya --- sorry :/
Anyway, after my husband came out to me that night (see the post entitled "A Magical Night of Mystery, Misery, Miracles, and Love") we went through about a year (give or take) of great discovery, closeness, working well together, communicating, honest efforts to re-establish trust, including God more in our lives, building faith and having hope for better times, humbly & honestly talking alot, sharing feelings, caring about each other, even growing our family (as we got pregnant with our last child), and learning & growing all we could through counseling, reading what information re: SSA that was out there at the time, spending time with others in situations similar to ours, building some great relationships with other gay men (both those who were out and living in committed gay relationships and those who did not desire that lifestyle and were looking for answers and/or hope for change, etc.), and we were "both" involved in Evergreen International at that time (although eventually that sorta fizzled - another part of our story).
This time was mostly a good time for me personally, even though I was "sharing" my husband alot with "the guys" as they were all working on establishing healthy relationships with other males, which is what alot of the teachings and counseling through Evergreen was all about. And, some of that did truly turn out to be really good and beneficial, -- some...not so much.
At this time there were alot of things going on, it's quite complicated, but then LIFE IS, and of course, that's what it was - my life. There were kids to care for, homework, dishes, sore throats, laundry, bills, groceries, dance lesson, music, new shoes, broken pipes, living room remodel, lost pets, spilled milk, hugs & kisses, great sex, laughter, tears, not enough time, sewing, hunting, crafting, fishing, meals, movies, friends, neighbors, church, family, and oh yea, a marrige to save... whew~~~ (and my blog readers wonder why I didn't just leave and file for a nice and tidy divorce - lol) ;) :)
continuation from above...
DeleteSo, anyway, during that really good year after Mr. IDM came out to me, I was feeling closer to him than I had in years. He was so humble, so sweet, so genuine, so lovable, and so honest; it was not that empty, begging forgiveness just to keep the peace, so I can go cheat again, kind of personality or attitude - I can spot that a mile away-, and this was definitely different, genuine, and real. I know that through that first year we were both sincerely putting all we had into it and I know that my husband truly believed he was on a wonderful track to somewhere great, and, that he loved me, our family, more than himself, and that he would do whatever it took to save our marriage, our family, and his life.
I'm thinking that, at this point, some readers are screaming, and raising their hands with excitement hoping to be called on cause they KNOW THE ANSWER... "just follow your AUTHENTIC sexuality, and give up those HORRIBLE religious beliefs that some earthly parent or prophet or community as instilled in you, and find yourself a wonderful gay guy to fall in love with, who TOTALLY turns you on, and leave the home of your wife and kids, and THEN you will be happy"....
Clearly our lives are much more complicated than that, and that is why it is hurtful and offensive when anyone assumes they know what WE should have done, and what WE did wrong, what I did wrong, or what my husband did wrong. It just is what it is, and we are STILL just muddling through, living our lives, and grateful that we are so blessed now, and that our lives are so much better, and that we have found great peace.
OK, so (after my little vent - sorry).... There is just so much to tell that I will leave out alot of details at this time so I can get into what everyone really wants to know, -- so what went wrong? and when? and why?.
I really can't put my finger on when, and I think we need to ask Mr. IDM if he can somehow explain why. (I'll ask him during the next half-time) ;)
I do know that it was not an "event" but more of a "process", and the next 13 years are full of good and bad, lots of genuine effort, and some almost giving up. This is the time that I am usually talking about when I mention the "hell" that we somehow lived through. This was the time when some of that "empty begging for my foregiveness with no commitment that it wouldn't happen again", occured. This was the time when I was often so wrapped up in my own pity party that the overall attitude of our relationship was "who hurts worse". This was a time when we actually separated for a week or two. It was a time when I foolishly hoped and believed that things would get better, things would be different, if only..... It was a time when both of us gave up on God to some extent, although we did continue to pray and attend church "part time", and go through the motions, so to speak. Personally, I always believed and knew that God was the answer, and, although it may seem completely crazy to some, I continuously prayed these exact words, "Heavenly Father, please bless my husband that he will somehow recognize his love for thee and for me". I just sincerely knew, deep in my heart and soul, that my husband was the wonderful man that he absolutely is, and I knew that he DID love me, and that he TRULY and DEEPLY loved God.
(to be continued in a couple of hours - I just got a call that we have some out of town family stopping by.... thanks for your patience, stay tuned if you choose)
Now I need popcorn! I'm looking forward to reading more but I do have one comment I'd like to make. Mr is watching footbal?? Worst. Gay man. Ever. ;-)
DeleteLOL - Yes Tammy as I've said he a manly man - who does not fit into my "mental box" of a gay man!
Delete**sipping on my mocha coffee waiting with Tammy to read more - I know strange since I could just talk to them**
Hey Eldest, we can always compare tats and talk about the symbolism behind them whilst we wait.....eating popcorn and stuff.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteOpps! - was trying to "edit" didn't mean to delete.
Delete(Mr. & Mrs. IDM here)
hahahahahahahaha :D (Mr. falling backwards with laugher in his laz-y-boy, remotes flying) ;)
:D :D (Mrs. running to the potty due to menopausal issues during extreme laughter ;) :/ ~~~~~
PS - I have to tell the truth that Mr. has, at times, been known to watch football with his headphones on while listening to Barbara, or Celine, or Yanni, or Cher. :) Gotta love him :)
Also, he is a true testiment to the power of "gaydar", because he absolutely DOES NOT fit the "stereotypical" (I hate stereotyping anyway) image of a gay man, and most anyone would not, in a million years, guess that he is gay, but somehow, they often - just know. I understand that it has alot to do with "eye contact", and that is why Mr. is much more careful about where he's looking and who he's looking at. I totally feel and see his attention much more on me and us in the past 7 years.
PS - as for the "stereotypical" gay man, I am amazed at how many men Mr. points out to me, who he either knows to be gay or suspects to be, and very often they ARE NOT the stereotypical gay guy - so there's that - for what it's worth. ?? :)
Celine? Gag. Ok, he's gone from worst gay man ever to gayer than me in 10 seconds flat!
DeleteI will say, the 13 yrs they are talking about, is precisely the time period I am talking about every time I say anything about the turmoil, or dysfunction we as kids witnessed in the above posts.
DeleteThis 13 yrs was the time I felt I was in a hurricane, and blind to the real reason, or FORCE that was causing havoc within our home, and our parents’ lives. I too thought this time period had been mentioned. So maybe this is one of the missing steps (Enough, Enough).
This time in my life is what finally “made sense” when I found out about my dad. The information liberated me from the fear and misunderstanding I had about my childhood.
Also, although I believe in the gospel, I have exercised my free agency, and I too have some tattoos. Not as many, or even as beautiful as some of Eldests, but I am not your squeaky-clean Mormon. Is anyone? As (Unknown) shared, “He who is without sin cast the first stone.”
Eldest does have some beautiful work.
Tammy, he loves Celine so much, we conteplated hiring a Las Vegas (female, lol) impersonater, who I knew personally and worked with her husband for a time. We decided against it.
So eldest got him and my mom tickets to Celine at the cesears before it ended.
(Mrs. IDM here) - OK, I'm back..
DeleteI realize that I probably need to make a couple of things very clear regarding the 13 years -
1. It was not all "hell", there WAS alot of love, fun, cooperation, growing, etc. during those years as well as the dysfunction that was, at times, just an underlying spark - almost unnoticable, and at times a roaring fire - which seemed as though it would surely consume us all and leave only ashes in the end.
2. When, at times, communication between Mr. & I was flowing smoothly, I would often express my willingness to support my husband if he wanted to take a different path. I told him that we could make it work, that I would not cause trouble with him and his children, and that I would even be respectful and supportive of his signifigant other if he should find another man to share his life. (Of course I didn't WANT that, but I knew that it might be an option and possibly it would be the answer to end the hurt and the pain - for me and for him as well). He would always, without hesitation, say, "absolutely not!" - he insisted that he had no desire to live a gay life and that he knew that he would not find happiness with any man.
3. Although I ABSOLUTELY NEVER approved of my husband's "down-low" activity/incidents, and, I WAS angry, hurt, broken hearted, and mad everytime I found out or was told (he would often tell me, amidst guilt, embarrassment, and shame, in an effort to remain honest - I know, it's twisted and dumb - but that's how it went), but I still, and for some reason, had great compassion and love for him. I don't feel that I was in denial, I felt like I was making a conscious decision, over and over again, to stick it out.
I remember always saying to myself (and even writing in my journal) that I would never make threats or ultimatums, etc., but that I would do MY BEST to take all that I could take, for as long as I could take it, and then, when I was sure that I couldn't take anymore, I would leave without option for reconciliation, take control of my life, and move on. I didn't believe in saying, "if you loved me you would....." although I think I did say that (maybe once or twice) when I lost control and said things I wouldn't normally have said. And, just as I already knew, it didn't make a difference or mean a thing. Personally, I think it's a stupid thing to say.
(continued from above)
Delete4. I believe Mr. IDM when he says that he was ALWAYS on a mission to STOP the infidelity. Although he was addicted to that unhealthy behavior, he did not ever find anything other than a "fix" for his appetite of the flesh, he never found anyone that did anything for him in any emotional way, and he always left feeling sick inside with guilt, lonliness, and dispair. He says, and I believe him, that he would go for many months without an incident, and that he was always quite determined after an "incident" that it would NEVER happen again. Personally, although I don't excuse this behavior, I understand the dynamics of addiction (our appetite for food, especially sugar, is probably as strong or maybe even stronger than our appetite for sex), and I know how many times, after the cheesecake, I was convinced that I would never eat dessert again. Yeah right!!! ~~~ ;) (Disclaimer for readers.... I know, marital infidelity just doesn't compare to mud pie... but you know what I mean.)
5. As to why I stayed? - (I think I have mentioned this before, but I'll repeat it just in case,)... it depends on the day or the minute or my mood.
At times I'm sure I stayed just because of the kids, and at times because I was too much of a coward to leave, but mostly, because I was and am still desperately in love with a wonderful, lovable, fun, exciting, romantic, kind, compassionate, spiritual, God loving, music loving, family loving man. And, because I was continuously inspired by God, (through my personal prayers to and relationship with my Heaven Father), that leaving was not the answer, I understood that divorce would be jumping from the frying pan- into the fire, I didn't think my children would be better off from a broken home, I knew, (and knew that my husband knew), that our family was worth keeping together, and I truly believed that there was hope for a better life for us just around the corner - somehow. Guess I was right ;) (I say that with much humility and gratitude, and a little bit of a humorous tease - I just couldn't resist) :)
NOTE - I just talked to Mr. IDM and although he is "very busy" with football and BBQing steaks, he does want to share some of his feelings about those 13 years, and he will post some comments maybe later tonight.
DeleteI'm here with my hot chocolate and popcorn too! Keep it up!
DeleteI did want to interject something about what Jr. said above: "If there had been internet when he was young, and he found a blog or 2 about the same thing he was dealing with, maybe the self hatred wouldnt have lasted so long. Sad really. How wonderful that more young LGBTQ youth have so many more tools to find others like them, whichever life they want to lead." YES! That is EXACTLY why I am following this blog. Any of you who have read my own blog have already read what I am about to say, sorry for the repeat. For years and years I really felt that I was alone in my same-sex attraction. I knew of course that gay people exist, but I had never known another Mormon who had those feelings. So, I felt isolated, alone, and defective. I experienced the same self hatred that has been talked about here. All of that changed dramatically in part due to me coming upon the blog of another LDS young man about my age who also has same-sex attraction. Through his blog I found this whole world of people who deal with this issue and are willing to discuss it. That has given me more hope than I have felt in years. The debilitating self-hatred that I used to experience is gone now. I have been able to accept myself completely for the first time. Now, I won't say that ALL of that is due to finding this blog I found, there have been a lot of things building up to this for some time now, but it was certainly a big part of it. That's why I decided to participate in this conversation, because I hope that my voice might save someone else as other voices have saved me.
Thanks IDM family for adding your voices!
(Mrs. IDM here)
DeleteUnknown - I just read your comments to Mr. IDM (who is deep in stuff related to his work as he has alot to catch up on from the holiday vacation) and he was so touched by your wonderful story of relief from the isolation, etc. and especially your statement that your debilitating self-hatred is gone, and you accept yourself completely now for the first time. What a blessing.
I have a questions for you if you are willing to respond (if not, I will understand).
Mr. IDM and I were talking, just this morning, about all the times when he was suicidal. He talked about a time (during the 13 years that we have been talking about here) when he felt like his life was so completely "un-controllable"; he was so deep in dispair; and he felt his life was basically hopeless much of the time. He said he often wondered how or if he could make it through the day.
It is important to understand that he did not feel hopeless because he desperately wanted to find a man to love, and wished for a fulfilling gay relationship. But, he actually felt hopeless because his sexual attraction, or appetite of the flesh (as he always calls it) seemed to hold him captive to activities that he truly did not want to continue, and because he feared that he would never find relief from those obsessive thoughts and addictive behavior.
What he really, truly, and desperately, desired was a peaceful life with his wife and children; and to be free from the guilt that he felt because of his infidelity, and the actions that he knew were not pleasing to God. He explained that, for him, living a life that he believed was pleasing in God's sight was of such great importance, (because of his personal relationship with Jesus Christ and his belief in eternal life), that his choices and actions while on this earth would eventually have great impact on his standing before God. But, because of his "unwanted" sexual attraction, and the activities and addictive behavior that accompanied that, he felt paralized and unable to do the work that he believed he should do, and wanted to do, to establish himself on "the right track" for his personal peace and satisfaction, and in accordance with his spiritual beliefs.
He says he often wished that he would just get hit by a car, and that God would take him out....., but he also often had a spark of hope that God would rescue him somehow instead.
So, my question to you, our "unknown" special friend, is if you have ever dealt with suicidal thoughts, and, (if you are willing to share), can you tell us what your thoughts were during such desperate and/or sorrowful times, and how did you pull yourself through those times to the better times you are telling us about here today?
Unknown,
DeleteI respect the courage you have to participate here, and I enjoy everything you post.
Mrs. IDM:
DeleteThanks for your question, I will try to answer as honestly and as best I can.
I have had suicidal thoughts. As a teenager dealing with this, and feeling completely isolated, I frequently thought about ending my life. Same-sex attraction was not the only issue I was dealing with at the time; I have always had awful self-esteem, for a variety of reasons. I was dealing with depression. We were having some difficult times in our family with serious health issues. My mother was having a crisis of faith and depression, and relied more on me than on my dad, because he is not much of a communicator (I am). I was trying to sort out some romantic feelings I was having for two different friends, one being a guy and the other being a girl (neither of the two was romantically interested in me). Anyway, you get my drift. There were a lot of factors, but my unhealthy perspective about my same-sex attraction was surely the biggest factor. "He says he often wished that he would just get hit by a car, and that God would take him out....., but he also often had a spark of hope that God would rescue him somehow instead." That amazingly describes my own feelings during that dark time. I prayed more than once that God would just take me out of this life.
I often thought of taking my own life, but I don't think I ever would have gone through with it. Some of the readers here may find it interesting that the very reason I never would have gone through with it was my faith. That and THAT ALONE stopped me from killing myself. So, for all the talk of religion being the "problem", if it weren't for that I would be dead now. It saddens me deeply to hear people blame LGBT suicides on religion. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
As far as how I got through it, there were also several factors in that. It was change in mindset that happened gradually over the last 3-4 years. One factor was a change in circumstances. The family problems got better (not perfect, but better). I was finally able to get my romantic feelings for my friends under control and move on. With those external factors getting better, I was able to deal with my depression a little more. As far as my self esteem issues, I still struggle with that to a degree, but it is much better now that it has ever been. I think a lot of that is due to things I learned and experienced as a missionary. I honestly can't define what changed and when, but towards the end of my mission I felt a change in me, a knowledge that I had worth. I don't know how else to describe it other than my belief that it was a gift from God. I suppose He was always trying to tell me that, but I had simply not been able to see. And, finally, the most abrupt change has happened just recently with the discovery of these blogs that I talked about above, and the resulting acceptance of my same-sex attraction.
I still struggle, of course, that is part of life. I don't want to make it sound like everything is just peachy now, because it isn't always. But, like I said, I don't have debilitating self-hatred anymore. I don't think about killing myself now. I do accept, appreciate, and love myself in ways that I never did before. I don't know if I answered your question completely, but if you want to know more just ask, I'm perfectly happy to share.
Unknown - thank you so very much for being so willing to share and for that beautiful expression of faith, hope, acceptance, and love. I am totally sending you a great big "BLUG" (blog hug - I just made that up - I'm so clever - lol) ;)
DeleteI would love to talk more about this tomorrow if you are willng. As for now, I'm exhausted and it's way past my bedtime. I am so thrilled to end this night of blogging with your wonderful comments and I will sleep cozy next to Mr. IDM with you in my prayers and a great sense of joy in knowing that we (Mr. IDM & I and our girls, and you) - are definitely here for a reason. God Bless you :)
I think a lot of teens go through the "thoughts of suicide" phase. Homosexuality seems like a pointless thing to add to their list of why suicide is an out. Though if society did accept it, there's no guarantee that teens still wouldn't struggle with it and see suicide as an option. After all, a lot of other reasons why teens feel suicide are society accepting issues (sick family members, no one understand them, etc) but just because they are accepted issues does not make it any less of an issue for that person. I was there once upon a time and it wasn't because I'm a lesbian.
DeleteThat's a good point. All teenagers pass through that phase of self-discovery and trying to deal with the changes they see happening in their lives and in themselves, and many think of suicide for one reason or another. You're right that homosexuality is not terribly unique in that aspect. Everyone has different things they have to learn to deal with. I suppose the outcome depends much more on how the teenager chooses to deal with/seek help for those dark thoughts and feelings than it does upon the specific issues they are facing. Good thoughts Tammy.
Delete(Mrs. IDM here)
DeleteAwesome thoughts, communication, and understanding taking place here. I am in tears and so touched as I feel the love and acceptance as "we" (everyone here)are clearly learning and growing and expanding our minds. Love to you all :)
Yes, it is certainly true what you (Tammy & Unknown) are saying. It definitely seems to me, from my personal experiences, from people I know, and from what I have read and learned along the way, that ALOT of teenagers have suicidal thoughts as they pass through that self-discovery phase. And, I too agree, that there are MANY issues that MOST youth face, especially in our world today. Yes, living life and/or deciding to end it, is very complex, either way, and none of us can presume to know ALL the pressures, heartaches, and issues that any individual deals with within their heart, mind, and soul.
Years ago a co-worker of mine ended her own life, I know personally of 4 MAJOR issues she was dealing with (her husband's infidelity - her recent diagnoses of a serious health issue - her lack of family support in the state where we lived - her recent job promotion into a position of great responsiblity & pressure). We were very saddened and devastated, and many of us wished we might have "done something" to save her - but, our place of employment arranged for the therapist, that she had been seeing prior to her suicide, to come to our work and talk with us about it. We were told that, "when a person ends their life, it is extremely complicated, and that there is always more than ONE issue in that persons life, and that there should never be any attempt to "blame" anyone or anything".
Mr. IDM knows of a gay man who was living in a committed gay relationship, who took his own life, and he literally left a note stating that he did not find peace and fulfillment in his gay lifestyle, and that he didn't see or feel any hope for relief or happiness ANYWHERE, so he gave up. So very sad.
Mr. IDM also tells of a few occasions where he had seen (at known "gay" - "down low" locations) individuals who he eventually discovered, and recognized their faces, in the obituaries. Such devastation, such a horrible and sad waste of a beautiful human life. Mr. is forever affected by the knowledge of these special individuals, some that he knew personally, and he believes that because he understood most of them to have feelings similar to his. Mr. IDM has said many times, that he was most suicidal when he felt there was no hope for him and his deepest desires > to find peace and happiness "away from" the most prevelant option of living a gay lifestyle, which he knew in his heart & soul was not, and would never be, right for him.
I feel so humbled right now, what can we do about the heartache, the confusion, the conflict, the bullying, the divorce, the low self-esteem, the pressures & stress, the hopelessness... (for whatever the reason)...?
- It seems that the answer to "hopelessness" is "HOPE" and HOPE can come in many different forms depending on the individual's complex issues. As a matter of fact, it is certainly possible, that one man's "hope" could be seen by another man as "hell" - so maybe we should accept any and all forms of hope and encourage suicidal individuals to explore ANY and ALL the options that "they" choose - we should just love EVERYONE, and support struggling, possibly suicidal, individuals with acceptance and understanding as they attempt to DISCOVER AND DEFINE THEMSELVES, especially those youth that clearly have a whole lot of issues on their plates.
I was just thinking about what Unknown said, that it was literally "his faith" that stopped him from killing himself. That is also EXACTLY why Mr. IDM did not kill himself as well. Clearly, for some, FAITH is a very good thing.:)
I think we can all agree that the suicides and beatings and homelessness of glbt youth has GOT to stop.
ReplyDeleteMost teenagers feel like freaks about something. Then they find a friend or mentor or parent who loves and accepts them exactly as they are. Even if they are part of a small minority.
I am finding that many gay youth that are too afraid to reach out or tell.
As adults we should be starting the conversation with all our youth about sexuality. So that they already know we are a soft place to land if they encounter these feelings in themselves.
Religiously--I don't expect anyone in the world to follow my beliefs or standards. I expect people to follow their own. As a rational person, I have to recognize that they might be right. So it isn't difficult to love people with integrity. Regardless of their choices or beliefs.
Of course, I'm pretty sure that in right ;)
Neurotic One
N.O. I love your posts!!
DeleteIt's like many of you have had a cancer that you couldn't speak about for years and years. And now you can - but the doctors still aren't allowing you to take the cure that is readily available - instead, you are only allowed to take medicine that masks the symptoms but doesn't cure the cancer.
ReplyDelete(Mrs. IDM here)
DeleteAnon - I would like to better understand what you are saying with this analogy. Can you please explain in a little more detail what you personally believe "the cure" is, that is readily available? And, also what you are referring to as the "medicine that masks the symptoms"? I don't want to initiate a "debate", but would like to have a respectful conversation. :)
Oh, okay, sure. 'The cure' is letting gay people live, well, gay lives. That is admittedly where the analogy breaks down somewhat - living a gay life is not akin to living with cancer as being gay is not a disease. The better word rather than cure is solution to the perceived problem. Yes, that is much better and makes more sense. So then it is more like this:
DeleteA problem is created. That created problem is not allowe to be talked about which wreaks all sorts of havoc. Then the created problem is allowed to be talked about, resulting in rejoicing and huge feelings of relief, etc. But the created problem is still there - it's just that those who have been able to somehow and with lots of bending and twisting been able to work around the created problem are now free to talk about it. So those who are new and don't know how to deal with the created problem, find much rejoicing and relief in looking to those who have gotten around it, sometimes by masking what was never a problem to begin with and sometimes waiting 30 or more years to be able to get around it successfully.
Great relief? Certainly.
The tragedy? There was no problem to begin with. So what you end up with is a whole new generation twisting themselves into pretzels to overcome in some way what is not a problem.
hope that helps to clear it up.
Thank you. Dialogue and not shutting down other opinions I think is a hallmark of authenticity.
Anon - I don't mean to sound rude, seriously, I think I'm more confused than before. Is the "problem" homosexuality? and if so, who, what, when, or how was it "created"?
DeleteAlso, I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the problem was "not allowed" to be talked about. Do you mean that someone or something did not allow the problem to be talked about, or do you understand that homosexuality (if that is the problem)was just not talked about by society in general until the past 15-20 years (especially in the past 5 yrs or so).
I really do want to understand your thought process, and not to just find a way to shut you down, but to possibly help you understand what we, on this particular blog, believe, etc.
Okay - Being gay and living a gay life is not a problem. It just is. The LDS leadership has created a problem for its gay members by saying you can't live a gay life. That is a created problem - yes, other religions have done this too. And certainly society has as well, hence your husband's confusion and self-hatred when he was just a boy which is a tragedy.
DeleteThe LDS church didn't allow gay members to talk about it for a long long time - so your husband had no one to talk to about it for example. Yes, this was also the case in society and thankfully that is changing and people are realizing that living a gay life is not actually a problem.
Now, the LDS church is allowing homosexuality to be talked about - it has a new website about it, it is telling its members to please be nice and compassionate to people who are gay. Awesome.
But it still says that living a gay life is a problem so while its members now get to talk and write about it openly, they must still find a solution to the created problem that is anything but living a gay life.
You must see that while it is awesome that it is now allowed to be talked about more openly in LDS circles, that putting a bandaid on the created problem - i.e. gay men marrying women is not the solution. You must see that by presenting it as a solution, as many thousands of times that you say it won't work for everyone, that desperate people will cling to your story. I am being genuine when I ask how can you not see that? If I have cancer, and someone says to me, 'look, the solution is against God but you can take this medicine that isn't the solution but hey, it worked for us but I'm telling you it may not work for you but look how wonderfully it worked for us,'' then I am going to grab at that medicine with everything I have?
I have no way to be clearer about this.
It is such a mixed message - you can talk about being gay but don't ever live a gay life.
Anyway, I'm sure I've crossed the line, gone to the point of no return.
DeleteI do understand What your saying.
It is just missing an individuals internal perception, and you replace your own perception on an individuals internal struggle.
My dad was not told being gay was bad, he just saw 100% of the people who were born like him (with a penis and scrotum) (sorry) to be 100% attracted differently then him. Thats the story of MANY (not sarcasm just emphasis) young gay youth, which you not being gay, I can see maybe how you do not understand and keep presuming his self hatred or internal struggle is because of "somthing" else.
Ok, I think I see the misunderstanding here, I do see what you are saying, and I understand some of what you are saying, but feel a need to hopefully clerify a couple of things for you to more fully understand Mr. IDM's life. While I see that you are unhappy with the problems you believe are caused by the LDS church in relation to homosexuality, and I understand that, for many, the church and the church's position might be the problem and issue for them. But, if you are interested, let me see if I can explain something to you that it appears you have missed in your reading of this blog (not being sarcastic and mean no offense).
DeleteHonestly, I'm afraid what I'm about to try to explain is going to fall on deaf ears, but I will continue to share in hopes that we are actually communicating here, and learning more about each other, and each other's views.
Mr. IDM insists that his conflict was because he believes he was born with the Light of Christ (and he believes that everyone is) and that he instinctively knew that being gay was not good for him and not pleasing to God. He takes full ownership of his feelings and beliefs, and he believes that his "spirituality" was not drilled into him from any outside force, any more than his "sexuality" was not drilled into him from any outside force. He has said that for him, "The church is not THE PROBLEM, the church is THE ANSWER".
I think the most important thing you have said here is this...
"yes, other religions have done this too. And certainly society has as well"
...anon - you are right, it IS complex, religions, society, ancient history, misinformed families, insensitive friends, bully's, psychologists, medical doctors, talk show hosts, etc. closed minded individuals, etc. are ALL contributors to THE PROBLEM, and it is unfair to place all the BLAME on religion, and especially ONE specific religion - THE LDS church. The leaders of the LDS church throughout the history of time have NEVER "not allowed" gay members to talk about "it" - the fact is that "it" just has not been talked about in society in general for a long long time, and it is through great efforts by gay advocates, media, gay pride parades, etc. etc. etc. that awareness and more open dialog is taking place (again, the LDS church is just in "in it" along with the rest of the world, and definitely NOT the "instigators" of the problems).
when you say that "the LDS church didn't allow gay members to talk about it" you are completely misinformed. Members of the church can talk about whatever they want..... leaders of the church have always been instructed to talk with and be confidants to members about anything and everything (they may not have had perfect understanding as to how to help a gay person, but they were NEVER "NOT ALLOWED" to talk about it. and, as far as my husband is concerned, he was raised in a tiny farming community in the 60's & 70's where he didn't feel there was anyone he could talk to about what he was experiencing - that is not the church's fault. He was not even raised with the any teachings of the LDS church in his home, no prayer, no talk of God, and no instructions to "choose the right", etc. - he did occasionally attend a LDS church meeting with his friends, but he says he did not EVER get any ideas from the LDS church that the church was against gays (he didn't even know anything about "gays" - he thought he was the only one like that in the world for some time). All he got from the church meetings he attended was good things about God, God loves me, I can pray to God for help, God hears and answers prayers, etc.
PS - many of us were talking and writing about "it" for years before the church's website (so your comments that the church is now allowing homosexuality to be talked about is still just wrong). We were attending Evergreen meetings 20 years ago that were held in LDS meeting houses with LDS leaders supporting and involved in those meetings.
DeleteYou are correct that the LDS church is still stating that their doctrine does not approve of homosexual activity. But if Mr. was somehow being "controlled" by the LDS church, "they" (whoever that means) were not doing a very good job of controlling him because he was participating in homosexual activity for almost 20 years. And, the fact is, that he says that, there was a time when, if he had ever found another man who did anything for his heart and soul, other than just provide a "fix" for his physical desires (appetite of the flesh), he would have possibly walked away from his "religious" beliefs, but he always instinctively knew that that life really wasn't for him, that he would never find peace and/or happiness, or real fulfillment from a homosexual life.
So, I've totally gone on and on, more than I intended to. Sorry....
Let me just close this by saying this...
we have a friend with cancer who whole is whole heartedly against modern medicine, and, because of his strong beliefs against chemotherapy because he does not believe that pumping an already sick body full of poison is the answer, so, instead he went to the great lengths and expense to go to Mexico and participate in an "alternative" treatment for his cancer, one where they pump you full of concentrated healthy enzymes & minerals, live cultures, vitamins, and all things known to be good for the body, etc. and, he had to abstain from absolutely everything that might have an unhealthy effect on his body so the God given "foods" (God's medicine) could heal him. (This has nothing to do with the LDS church or religion, by the way) It is a proven method for fighting and curing cancer, and it is getting to be more and more accepted, well known, and understood. It IS an legitimate OPTION for those who CHOOSE to go this route.
Mr. IDM knew in his youth and knows now from experience, that, for him, the gay lifestyle was/is NOT THE CURE - although many claim it's the answer, and many get great results, to him, it's "poison" and he prefers to abstain from what he believes to be (and has proven to himself to be)the widely accepted practice of masterbation and entertaining homosexual thoughts, and he IS healed by feels great as he fills up on heterosexual sex, that he believes to be God's medicine (the sexual activity that his physical anatomy clearly was designed for - to connect with the physical anatomy of a woman). He's telling you, and I can testify to you, that his choice of "cure" is what makes him feel healthiest and happiest and it is absolutely NOT a bandaid, and, that homosexual activity for him is absolutely NOT a cure, but only a temporary "fix".
So, anon - I have no way to be clearer about this. I am being genuine when I say, "how can you not see that"?
Anon - sorry, I totally forgot to ask a question of you that I have been wondering about as I wrote the comments above.
DeleteI ask this with genuine interest and desire to understand your beliefs.
I think I understand from your comments that you truly and completely believe that the ONLY way to real happiness for a homosexual individual is to embrace their homosexuality and pursue a gay relationship(s). Is that correct?
If that is correct, I am curious to know what concrete information and/or experience you have with any homosexual individuals who have found this ONLY option to be their source of great happiness and complete fulfillment. (and possibly statistics, etc.)
And, I would like to know if you know of, or know personally, any homosexual individuals who have had struggles and unhappiness as they have attempted to embrace their homosexuality.
Also, I am wondering, if a homosexual person insists that they have found true happiness and peace in living in a MOR, and in having "heterosexual" sex, and, that they are actually more fulfilled in spite of their sexual attractions to men, why do you not believe what they say, and continue to claim that their way of life is just a "band aid"?
I am wondering what person experience with or associations you have with anyone who is happy living in a MOR, and/or anyone who has attempted living in a MOR and found it NOT to be fulfilling for them.
Finally, do you believe that sexual appetite is the most important aspect of an individuals life?
Mom,
DeleteI've asked these exact questions of him earlier. He did not answer them.
Anon if you answer these I have one more...
Do you personally believe in God, or any greater power?
Really we are just trying to get a better understanding of who you are, and where your coming from.
I am sure many readers are wondering "WHY GO THE ROUNDS??" espescially when we already said we were "done" interacting with this specific ANONYMOUS person.
I personally feel learning can be found even within these types of "discussion" or "debates". Healthy discussion is good, but somtimes even unhealthy communication can teach.
Many people are offended too easily, us included, and get defensive too easily, us included. People do not like to be questioned and that is normal. It is hard to take something you believe whole heartedly to be true, and have it turned on its head. Thoughtful and open reflection is sometimes a key to understanding. As is thoughtful and respectful questioning.Some are not so reflective, not so thoughtful,and do not want to try to understand. Some are quick to presume, and judge and assume their own perception of a situation. That is normal too.
I admit I myself am ignorant of so many things. I am not offended by being called ignorant.
I am also presumptuous at times. I was presumptuous even about one of our readers (you know who you are) who we follow as well, and I said some ignorant things about her real life situation I did not understand. I said judgmental things; although I felt justified at the time, and feel I was showing her love and acceptance regardless, I was ignorant.
She (you know who you are;-) still just spoke with me, and taught me things I did not know about her. She did so lovingly and with a true desire to educate me about my mislead assumption about her and her life.
I “ate my words” and although it was hard, it was good too.
She could have been offended and decided I should just be ignored. She saw that I was just ignorant and she gave me more understanding, and I now have a “new” understanding. Because it was HER STORY and I believe in having faith in people that when true genuine questions need answering, you answer them, sometime even in the face of ignorance (me, in that situation).
So although it is not always conducive to a respectful or genuine dialog, WE (everyone) need to have more compassion and understanding for even the indignant know it all’s, and try to allow their assumptions, to be able to give them more understanding of where we are coming from. You do not have to put up with certain behaviors, and when it becomes necessary, you draw a line for what you tolerate in your self-respect, but if a somewhat respectful progression of dialog continues, then the door for love and understanding is always open.
Communication is KEY
yep - what she said ~~~~ :D excellent thoughts Jr. :)
DeleteWow, JR, that person you had that convo with sounds awesome! ;-)
DeleteI am obviously not equating homosexuality with cancer - but the analogy fits in that all that is being done is excited talking about something that will mask 'the symptoms.'
ReplyDelete"So, since this is OUR blog, we will let you know when you cross our line. that is VERY Mormon, shutting down other opinions.
ReplyDeleteAs for Mr. Idm being a 'manly man' surely you know that there are many many 'manly men' in the gay community - so much so that they are like a grouping within the community.
Just to clarify. I grew up in the predominatly LDS community and although I have had a few gay friends, they were always the effeminate/flamoyant type. Therefore, when I stated that my dad is a "manly man", it is because for me it didn't compute with what my personal experiences had been with the gay community.
DeleteYes anon - you are absolutely right about the "manly men" :) -exactly why we mentioned that we don't like stereotyping and I also mentioned how often Mr. IDM points out gay men to me who do not fit into that "swishy" stereotype, but seem to be just much a "manly men" as the average heterosexual guy - (whatever "he" looks like - lol).
DeleteHaving said that, I know you mentioned that you are not gay, but I assume, because of your commitment as an advocate for LGBTQ individuals, that you probably have friends and family members who are gay/lesbian, and so you know, as we know (since we have many many friends who are gay), that although we all understand the truth that the stereotypes are far from always accurate, the fact remains that alot of LGBTQ individuals still lovingly joke about themselves and their "community" using those very stereotypes. Tammy, (a lesbian), is a good example of this, as she joked about Mr. IDM watching football, and then Mr. laughed his socks off (and was not offended in the least) :D
Interesting that Anonymous feels he is entitled to speak his opinion here, but if any one else speaks our opinion of him (or her), we are just trying to "shut down" his opinion? Seems one sided?
DeleteAlso if we speak our opinion about ourselves....WAIT, the antonym for opinion is in fact, REALITY and/or TRUTH.... So we speak our REALITIES and TRUTHS about ourselves, and he feels inclined to (by his/her own definition) "shut down" our realities with his opinion of them.
I see why your defensive, your opinion, although entitled, is just that.....the opposite of reality/truth.
Our defensivness comes from the judgement (a synonym of opinion) of our REALITY and TRUTH.
Makes sense to me.
huh? I was told that if I went ''over the line'' I wasn't welcome. That is what I am referring to.
DeleteJudgement is not a synonym of opinion.
Do you see that almost every single time I express my opinion that you come at me sarcastically? AND WITH CAPITAL LETTERS. And you consistently accuse me of being defensive but that is what you are being when you respond sarcastically to me. It is a way of trying to shut down what I say - by mocking me you can seem to be 'rising above me.' If you feel that this is what I am doing, why stoop to my level?
I am expressing a different opinionn is the reality of what I am doing.
Reality is not the same as truth. Everyone's perception is their reality but it's not necessarily the truth.
Anon I have a question.
DeleteWhat are your feeling on plastic surgery? Say that I really do not like my appearance, others may or may not like my apperance (I may even have a twin that loves her apperance), but I personally have issues with the way I look. Would it be wrong for me to get plastic surgery in order to better myself.
Also if I do have the plastic surgery and am now happy with myself. Does that give you a right to tell me that my new apperance and my plastic surgery was the wrong choice for me? I would be the one to have to look in the mirror everyday.
Or let's say that that I was born a man and felt that I should have been born a women. Would it be wrong of me to have a transgender resassignment surgery to become the person I want to be?
Anon - It's actually surprising to me how a commenter's "intent" is somehow felt even through writing. Personally, I feel like your "intent" here is to argue, debate, ridicule, push your opinions, and insist that you are "right" and anyone who doesn't agree with you is "wrong".
DeleteYou really should have your own blog to express your opinions and beliefs, as this blog is about OUR opinions and beliefs. I have done alot of "conversing" on blogs, and reading as others communicate through blogs, and I have read alot of respectful exchanges where it is clear that people are just working together to try to understand each other and grow and learn, but, I find your attitude and approach to be confrontational and arrogant, and frankly, you seem to talk circles around yourself.
I am actually more of a lover, not a fighter, as is my husband and family - I like to avoid conflict, and will often bend over backwards to keep the peace. Mr. IDM & I are well aware that there's alot of people out there with different beliefs, ideas, and attitudes than ours, and we decided when we started this blog that we would not allow this blog to be a public forum for debate. Think about it, Mr. IDM has gone to great lengths his whole life to avoid confrontation and riducule, and continues to keep his sexual orientation a secret. He definitely has the right (as do I) to steer clear of judgemental insensitive people like you, here in our own little world, on OUR BLOG.
You are exactly right when you say that we are "shutting down your opinion", because, from what we have heard thus far, we don't agree with your opinions and are not interested in arguing or debating with you. You don't seem to be interesting in understanding our story or establishing any compassion for our story or us, so why would we be at all interested to continue to try to communicate with you? Again I say - If you don't like the message, don't read the blog. Sorry~
Sorry if my CAPS comes across as sarcasm. I don't know all the in's and out's of text communication. My CAPS is just me "emphasizing" or "highlighting" a word I feel is important. I apologize if your reading it as sarcasm. Not my intent. I can see how that would be assumed.
DeleteI recommend you look at a dictionary for the antomyns and synonyms of Opinion.
I agree, we are all defensive,I just said that. You are, we are and others are in our "defense".
This is not what this blog is about. Its about respect, understanding, and learning, for anyone who wants to within our story and our boundaries.
We did not make a blog Entitled "Come give us Your opinion about OUR life and religion." Or " YOU Define ME".
Its "I Define Me"
So yes we do want your opinion kept to yourself, (on this blog) and we make no apologies for it. If you call it "shutting you down" so be it.
If you have reasonable and respectful questions we will answer.(They'll tell you what position they do IT in if they feel you are genuinly asking....uuugh) but you are mostly disrespectful and Contradictive.
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DeleteSorry you need a Thesaurus....thats not a kind of dinosour...<-----thats me being sarcastic ;-)
DeleteGood point Eldest - I was actually thinking about the transgender process myself one day. I was wondering about the people who are "against" Mr. IDM's choice to mold and DEFINE himself as he prefers, and all he has been through along the way to establish the life that he so desperately desired and that feels more authentic to him, would they understand him more if his path(process) was compared to the path(process) of a transgender individual?
DeleteIt is interesting, and it seems to me that some people have a whole lot of trouble accepting a man's personal journey away from his unwanted sexual attractions (that he was born with), that he insists don't match with his heart & soul, but they completely support another man's personal journey away from his unwanted physical anatomy (that he was born with)that he insists don't match his heart and soul. ????
Agreed ;-)
DeleteI have a friend who went through a sex change, and I never questioned it, Because of my experience with dad...happiness is good.
Anon 9:44
Delete"Everyone's perception is their reality but it's not necessarily the truth."
Your statement.
I say practice what you preach.
Your PERCEPTION of OUR (again, emphasis, not sarcasm) life story, is not necessarily the truth."
I get you have conviction in your perception of our reality, but your not living it, so our truth/reality, is by definition, more substantiated, concrete, and undeniable.
I'd like to weigh in on this...you know, because I'm so quiet and shy and rarely share my thoughts. ;-D
DeleteI can see both sides and the transgendered example solidified IDM (x4) position for me. But I'd like to use that as the example of both sides. Also, I don't think Anon is referring to your situation specifically, just the view of homosexuality as a whole (correct me if I'm wrong). Which also sounds like we all agree on anyway. It's obvious to me that we do because all of the IDMs support people who decide on either direction.
Anyway - on to the T of LGBT!
IDM's Side:
Trans:
Person born as male and identifies as female.
Decides to live as a female because though he was born male he isn't comfortable being male.
Gay:
Mr IDM born gay and identifies as gay
Decides to live straight because though he was born gay he isn't comfortable being gay
Anon Side:
Trans:
Person born as male and identifies as female.
Remains male because SOCIETY says changing genders is wrong.
Gay:
Gay people born gay and identify as gay
Gay people live straight because SOCIETY says they should.
Same scenario but I think the important difference here is the persons feelings/motives behind the direction they choose.
If the choice is because it is their choice on what they feel is "right" for them, that's one thing.
If the choice is because of what OTHERS (pressure from society, religion, family, etc) want, that's quite another.
I think Anon (along with myself) feels that if the societal pressure was removed and people made choices based on what they feel is right for them (such as what Mr IDM did) then there would not be a problem (or cancer). This is "perfect world" scenario and I think we are getting there. The more we talk about it, the more it's accepted, the better off we will all be. Right now, the important thing is to respect each individuals right to choice and not try to define it as right or wrong based on their motivators. We can only provide support and trust them to make their own decisions.
I LOVE this transgender example because I support reassignment 100% I was able to step out of my box.
Tammy -
DeleteI loved this as it shows both sides of the coin, but I propose one more aspect to it.
Transgender: God made them who they were born as - changing the gender assignment that they were physically born with is celebrated with in LGBT community.
Gay: God made them who they were born as - wanting changing who they were born physicaly attracted to and choosing to be in a mixed orientation is deemed wrong with in the LGBT.
Anon -
DeleteYou can take it the other way too.
Transgender: God made them who they were born as - changing the gender assignment that they were physically born with is not accepted within the LDS community.
IDMs are LDS and do not feeling it isn't acceptable (is that a double negative?)
Gay: God made them who they were born as - wanting changing who they were born physicaly attracted to and choosing to be in a mixed orientation is accepted in the LDS community.
I am LGBT and do not think this is unacceptable. So, we can blanket statement and entire group.
But, my example wasn't meant as right/wrong or who's better/who's worse. But instead about greater understanding of the other perspective.
Thank you Tammy :)
DeleteMr. IDM feels that to live a gay life would be like poison. Wow.
ReplyDelete(Mr. IDM here)
DeleteYes, Anon - FOR ME....a gay life would be toxic.
BTW - I am still interested in your answers to the questions that my wife and daughter have asked of you.
If you are not gay, and don't believe in God, how would you know that a gay lifestyle is NOT TOXIC to my soul?
Good for you Mr. IDM!
DeleteAlthough I've never posted comments either here or on The Weed's blog before, I've been reading them forever. Thank you much for being willing to tell your story. I feel like it empowers many people like me, who want to understand people better, to be more of a support to others.
I believe in God, just not the God that considers living a gay life wrong. Being gay and living a gay life and having a relationship with God are not mutually exclusive, even though your church has told you that it is.
DeleteJust toxic to your soul? or to the souls of all LDS believers? If it is just your soul then you would have no issue with other LDS members living a gay life?
Do you ever say to your gay friends who are living a gay life 'hey, being gay is great for you but for me, living a gay life is toxic to my soul and will keep me out of the highest level of heaven?" I think that if Josh Weed had told that particular tidbit to Ricki Lake, her response might have been very different.
Would you ever tell a gay Mormon youth that their choosing to live a gay life is fine and not toxic to their souls?
IDM's story seems to be that living a gay life is toxic and poison so instead, he got married and had numerous sexual encounters with men during most of that marriage. Now that is finished and he has a great relationship with his wife. And now he wants to support all the young gay Mormon men out there who also think being gay is toxic.
Now, say I'm black. And I've known in my soul since birth that being black is toxic to my soul. Or say I'm straight. And I've known since birth that being straight is toxic to my soul, so I marry someone of the same sex but have continuous straight affairs until finally I am able to have joyous sex with my same sex partner. How much sense does that make to you? Would you support me in marrying someone of the same sex because I believe opposite sex relationships to be toxic to my soul?
It's not about supporting or not supporting. It's about people not living gay lives because they believe that God says that living gay lives is toxic to their souls.
As for the transgendered comparison - what about if someone is changing genders because they believe that God is telling them that their current gender is toxic for them?
ReplyDeleteBelieving that God thinks living a gay life is wrong is a toxic message. All of this anger about how I hypocritical it is to not support Mr. IDM because he believes that God thinks living a gay life is wrong - maybe my God thinks that being black is wrong and toxic to my soul - would I support that, no. It's not a miracle, it's co-opting God to support your own internalized homophobia.
Anonymous (do I need a time or do we all know who I am speaking to?)
ReplyDeleteI have a couple of questions for you. But I do ask that you answer each one as a Yes/No answer without a diatribe or soap box lecture.
1. If Mr. IDM was not LDS would you be ok with a mixed orientation marriage?
2. If Mr. IDM was Catholic & decided to become a priest because he did not want to live a gay lifestyle, would you be ok with his decision?
3. If Mr. IDM was agnostic or atheist would you be ok with a mixed orientation marriage?
4. Do you believe that anyone should tell you how to live your life?
5. Do you agree that any governing body (church, government, family) should have absolute power over your life and the choices you make, therefore taking away, in essence, your free will?
6. If a LDS missionary came to your door to tell you about the LDS church and would not leave, just kept knocking and talking and debating and insisting that you believe as they do, would you be frustrated and begin to defend your own beliefs?
6a. Would you ask them to leave?
Remember I just want Yes/No answers, just to understand you better - in a straight forward cut and dry way that my simple mind can process.
Thank You.
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ALL IN FAVOR say AYE!!
hahahahahaha - :D I KNOW, I AGREE :)
ReplyDeleteWe've been working on three different posts for days now, but I feel such a need to get a new post out that I am actually currently working on one by me (as we speak/type) because Mr. IDM is working all day today, and I needed his input to finish any of the other 3.
It'll be done, hopefully, in a few hours. I promise :)
whoa, I couldn't read ALL of that but my two cents is if you take God out of the picture, all that will be left is people, and people are imperfect. The judgements that one feels is NOT from God. It is from His imperfect, misunderstanding, children. God loves us all NO MATTER WHAT. And to top it all of, He UNDERSTANDS. He's waiting with open arms at all times. it's the world that closes doors, and causes shame, it's the adversary.
ReplyDeleteAnd any lifestyle chosen by a homosexual, if truthfully lived, is a gay lifestyle. You choose for yourselfs, and my dad will choose for himself, and everyone else will choose for themselves, we're all using Agency, it's great!! and all being judged. not so great. My family is not suggesting a ONE WAY PATH TO SALVATION pfffth, ridiculous! but a gleam of hope for those who look for answers, who want to know their options, and to know that Christ will help YOU find YOUR own path, wherever it may lead. And NO ONE has the right to judge you for your path. but they will...so ya just gotta not care, and just LOVE. :)
oh and PS, GOD defines us. not church, people, media, society, or our "religion". Because we pray to know what is true, and what he wants us to do. If God told me to leave the LDS church, I would. But no, he told me it's true. So I am not an LDS person to be a member of the Mormons. But to follow God, and what plan he has for me. Same goes with every life decision I make. Pray about it, you don't need US to tell you, cause HE will. :)
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